[vlmarshall]

Well, I just managed to smoke my Spindle controller board, a Puma SM. I was trying to add CNC4PC's C6 speed interface card, and missed the bit about using an isolated power supply. The C6 is dead, only putting out a constant 4.48 volts, and the Puma is no better, unresponsive to my old relay board, with the reset LED constantly lit.

I guess I'm in the market for another speed controller, any suggestions? Spindle monitoring and rigid tapping would be great, I'm not against the idea of switching out the 110VDC motor I'm using now, brushless would be nice, as would more horsepower.

[hoss2006]

Been there
Surplus Center no longer carries the replacement board I used but have another.
KB Electronic makes one too.

[vlmarshall]

Interesting...well, at least I know cheap replacements are available.

I wonder if anyone has used one of the 2000-4000watt brushless RC aircraft motors yet.
If I could find a way to control it, I'd do it. The idea of low-speed torque AND 10k spindle speeds is hard to ignore...but I'm spoiled by the Haas 10k spindle.

[valmet58]

the rc aircraft motors are controlled by a small module that requires as in input
a pulse that the width is varied from 0 to 2 msec. wide repeated about 30 times a second..that pulse driving circuit is very easy to implement with a pic microprocessor..Just a thought..:cheers:

[escott76]

Interesting...well, at least I know cheap replacements are available.

I wonder if anyone has used one of the 2000-4000watt brushless RC aircraft motors yet.
If I could find a way to control it, I'd do it. The idea of low-speed torque AND 10k spindle speeds is hard to ignore...but I'm spoiled by the Haas 10k spindle.

That may well be where I'm headed. I've seen pics of someone using an axi 28XX motor on one, and I have a 5330 or two kicking around, which top out around 2000 Watts. Why you'd need over 2 HP peak into a Sherline spindle I don't know, but I'd be willing to try
Controlling it shouldn't be that bad. I'd use one of the commonly available micro-controller boards from places like Parallax to build an "interpreter" to go from the 0-10v that the G540 puts out (or it could take step and dir if I wanted it to) and generate an appropriate pulse train for a hobby servo which is what the hobby ESC's use. It sounds bad, but the code is relatively simple to do.
There are a couple problems with this setup though. First is cost. If you have some of the stuff lying around it can be cheap, but if you have to find a power supply capable of the amperage these things demand to get to those power levels (you aren't getting 2000W without a PS that will put out ~60A). Add to that the cost of the motor and a good controller and you are right back to where you should have just gotten a cheaper VFD and been done with it.
The second big issue is cooling the motor. These kind of motors were designed to be placed in the nose of a moving airplane. They rely on cooling airflow to keep the magnets under their curie temp, so as to not lose magnetism. When you do things like use them in Helicopters, where they are relatively stationary you need to come up with ways to force air though them. This would be no different, you'd need to come up with a cooling solution, or your longer runs will end in disappointment.
I've actually built a couple of motors like this, using scrounged armature laminations from other motors, rewinding them to my liking, and redoing the magnet arrangement, switching from the stock ferrites to N45 neo's. I think the trick is to wind something like this so it will take power from a cheaper VFD, so your power supply and controller needs are handled in one box. It's the same kind of motor, 3 phase, so the base theory is sound. Once I've got my machine complete, that's my next challenge.

[escott76]

the rc aircraft motors are controlled by a small module that requires as in input
a pulse that the width is varied from 0 to 2 msec. wide repeated about 30 times a second..that pulse driving circuit is very easy to implement with a pic microprocessor..Just a thought..:cheers:

1-2ms wide repeated 50 times a sec, but you're in the ballpark

[vlmarshall]

Well, I just ordered a KBIC card, and sent an email off to the Puma's manufacturer to enquire about repair costs.

I've been wanting to get into PIC and BASIC stamp programing, maybe I'll pick up a Parallax experimenter board and play with one of my brushless ESCs in my spare time. I don't have anything big enough for a Sherline spindle, but the input for a small ESC, or even a servo, works the same way.

[escott76]

Well, I just ordered a KBIC card, and sent an email off to the Puma's manufacturer to enquire about repair costs.

I've been wanting to get into PIC and BASIC stamp programing, maybe I'll pick up a Parallax experimenter board and play with one of my brushless ESCs in my spare time. I don't have anything big enough for a Sherline spindle, but the input for a small ESC, or even a servo, works the same way.

Do yourself a favor, get the propeller board instead of the basic stamp. $20 buys the proto board with the chip and memory pre-soldered. It offers on board connectors pre-wired for keyboard and mouse input as well as TV out. Space for prototyping too. Easy to program too, with a USB programming cord. It's not only the cheapest option overall, but far more powerful in the end than a basic stamp. I like the language too, better than PBasic, but that's a personal preference.
It's the board I would use, and if you like I can help with programming, as I said I plan to do it myself at some time. I can also do PBasic, but I'm a little rustier in that.

[vlmarshall]

Nice, thanks for the tips

[Riceburner98]

We use Basic STAMP's all day here at work to run our test equipment. Super-easy to program (which is likely why we use them), but SLOW, inefficient code, and retardedly expensive. I've blown at least 6 of the $90 BS2P40's in the last few months. They don't like static charges. I'm changing to Cypress PSOC chips (they have tons of configurable devices embedded on the chips) since we use those in products we sell and so guys here know how to program them in C, but I use Atmel parts exclusively at home. I'd reccomend Atmel or PIC any day over Basic STAMPs, unless speed or cost doesn't matter and you need to have kids program it.

I've got the SurplusCenter control boards mentioned above (both the old plain aluminum one and the black anodized one) but haven't done much beyond spinning a motor with them. Hopefully they're easy enough to interface with. Lately I've been machining at 10k RPM / 120inches / minute and feel the need for more speed though. I like the idea of a nice high speed spindle with the RC motor attached. I could go for 20k RPM as long as it doesn't sound like a screaming Banshee. (Dremel tool.) It's fun watching a rooster tail of aluminum spit out of the cutter!

[Jason3]

I wonder if anyone has used one of the 2000-4000watt brushless RC aircraft motors yet.
If I could find a way to control it, I'd do it. The idea of low-speed torque AND 10k spindle speeds is hard to ignore...but I'm spoiled by the Haas 10k spindle.

Almost! I built a spindle with a 3 Hp Magmotor like the combat robot guys use. The spindle wasn't much good, but the motor was ferocious. I used a controller with a 5K pot, like the ones they have on electric scooters. Rated speed at 24v is 6000 rpm, and it has tons of torque.

If I could keep the motor cool, I would absolutely use it on something like the Sherline spindle.

You can control the brushless RC motor controllers with a servo tester - http://www.robotcombat.com/products/RL-SRVTST.html

Did you consider using a servo to drive the spindle? Everybody I've heard of doing that has been very pleased with their performance.

Best regards,

Jason

[vlmarshall]

Almost! I built a spindle with a 3 Hp Magmotor like the combat robot guys use...the motor was ferocious... Rated speed at 24v is 6000 rpm, and it has tons of torque.
If I could keep the motor cool, I would absolutely use it on something like the Sherline spindle.
You can control the brushless RC motor controllers with a servo tester - http://www.robotcombat.com/products/RL-SRVTST.html
Did you consider using a servo to drive the spindle? Everybody I've heard of doing that has been very pleased with their performance.
Best regards,
Jason

Yes, I've thought about using a servo tester, I think I have one around here in my tons of RC stuff...
Hmmm... a servo spindle would give me instant rigid tapping ability...
Your 3hp combat 'bot motor sounds good, my current spindle setup is fan-cooled, but I guess I'd need more than just a fan... maybe a Peltier or water cooling?

We use Basic STAMP's all day here at work to run our test equipment. Super-easy to program (which is likely why we use them), but SLOW, inefficient code, and retardedly expensive. I've blown at least 6 of the $90 BS2P40's in the last few months. They don't like static charges. I'm changing to Cypress PSOC chips (they have tons of configurable devices embedded on the chips) since we use those in products we sell and so guys here know how to program them in C, but I use Atmel parts exclusively at home. I'd reccomend Atmel or PIC any day over Basic STAMPs, unless speed or cost doesn't matter and you need to have kids program it.

I've got the SurplusCenter control boards mentioned above (both the old plain aluminum one and the black anodized one) but haven't done much beyond spinning a motor with them. Hopefully they're easy enough to interface with. Lately I've been machining at 10k RPM / 120inches / minute and feel the need for more speed though. I like the idea of a nice high speed spindle with the RC motor attached. I could go for 20k RPM as long as it doesn't sound like a screaming Banshee. (Dremel tool.) It's fun watching a rooster tail of aluminum spit out of the cutter!

Arrgh...I think I'll wait a bit on this one. When I get into PICs it'll be for robotics, I guess I won't torture them in my mill, at least not right away. Dealing with a learning curve AND a destructive environment sounds expensive.

Yes, running something like a 3/4" two-flute through aluminum at 10,000RPM and 100IPM is a lot of fun... but noisy.

[project5k]

where was that website when i was building my battle bot? holy crap.. oh, and thoes brushless motors, i gotta get one for my RC outrigger!

i dont need to push a 3/4" endmill that fast, but i sure would like to run my 1/4" and smaller stuff, and be able to do something in the neighborhood of 50IPM, as it is now, i'm crawling at 2-3IPM(stock spindle at 2krpm

[vlmarshall]

Yeah, I'm spoiled by the Haas machines at work. Sometimes it's hard to come home and 'Think Small', but it is relaxing.

[Jason3]

I do think a servo setup would've cost less than my Magmotor experiment, and as you say - rigid tapping would then be relatively straightforward. Speed control is almost trivial then too...

A peltier big enough to remove the heat from a Magmotor might cost quite a bit? I do wonder about the internal motor temperature given they're a brushed, closed motor - the heat from the brushes and windings doesn't really have anywhere to go. I think a brushless RC motor would be better from a cooling point of view.

Having said that though, I have an electric quad with 2 of the larger 4.5 Hp Magmotors and they don't get too hot even after an hour's fun in the park. Maybe a fan and heat sink would be all that was needed?

Project5K - good site, isn't it

Regards,

Jason

[Jason3]

I've actually built a couple of motors like this, using scrounged armature laminations from other motors, rewinding them to my liking, and redoing the magnet arrangement, switching from the stock ferrites to N45 neo's. I think the trick is to wind something like this so it will take power from a cheaper VFD, so your power supply and controller needs are handled in one box. It's the same kind of motor, 3 phase, so the base theory is sound. Once I've got my machine complete, that's my next challenge.

Eric, is there any reason you can see that you couldn't just use a brushless RC motor with windings for higher voltage with a standard VFD? Preferably cheaper, but something like the Neumotor 1521/3Y (110v) or 1527/3Y (140v) perhaps?

Best regards,

Jason

[escott76]

Eric, is there any reason you can see that you couldn't just use a brushless RC motor with windings for higher voltage with a standard VFD? Preferably cheaper, but something like the Neumotor 1521/3Y (110v) or 1527/3Y (140v) perhaps?

Best regards,

Jason

None that I can see. Provided you get something where the Kv is in the right range for your gearing things would work just fine. Neu is good stuff too.
To those suggesting Magmotors, I'm know they put out the power per size (I'm a current bot builder as well) but I think that there are many better options particularly given the cost of Magmotors. Again, if you have a couple it's not a bad option, but to those staring from scratch it's prolly not the best option as you are looking at the same high cost for power supply and speed control.
The higher voltage brushless setup with a small VFD may be just the ticket, although I still think that cooling is going to be an issue unless the motor is run well below it's rated max.

[Jason3]

To those suggesting Magmotors, I'm know they put out the power per size (I'm a current bot builder as well) but I think that there are many better options particularly given the cost of Magmotors. Again, if you have a couple it's not a bad option, but to those staring from scratch it's prolly not the best option as you are looking at the same high cost for power supply and speed control.

Yeah, that was me

I agree. I happened to have all that already so I figured it was worth a shot. If I hadn't, I'd have gone servo or RC brushless.

Regards,

Jason

[Herbertkabi]

hi Sherline and Taig guys!
I have made different spindles, just added motors for direct drive, as well as built from A to Z all muself ... included high speed spindles 25krpm up to 50k.
Hereby I like to show direct drive Sherline I made yesterday/today for my friend.
When used 24V Power Supply (16A max.) - result was 4300 RPM, 0.3A no load current, 1A...5A with 6mm endmill, milling of aluminium (5A max when very!!! heavy cut),
Motor is my own design, stator plates 0.15mm thick, 24 tooth, 20 pole (low cogging!!!) toroid wound by cheme AabBCcaABbcCAabBCcaABbcC, 8.5 turns per tooth, 0.33 square mm wire (I use Litz)
Motor driver: any adequate (voltage/amperage) brushless RC speed controller,
I used 40A Kontronik today, and this ESC you drive with simplest PWM generator (RC servo tester). OD-53mm, ID-38mm, h-20mm, Neodymium magnets 5x20x2mm ...
I wound this motor all windings (Aa pairs) "wires on the air" because I was not sure about result, and about what voltage will be used later ... so it was done so because to have possibilities to group series/parallel Aa pairs if it will be needed ... all windings per phase are series connected now and all togethere to Star. Switch mode power supplies I have and already tried 24V/16A, 36V/12A, I have 48V/36A large one too but was too lazy to try it ( was needed to change this Kontronik (25V) to higher V ... but I know it works well and result will be twice higher than with 24V - when 48V then max RPM 8600 and no load current perhaps bit higher than 0.6A because small losses (good materials ) Today I dont know what RPM my friend will need - we see it later - at that I dont want to give away my 48V supply ... perhaps he will happy with 24V -> 4300 rpm ???????????????????????????
Of course - to do all this - some kind of knowledge must to be owned before
... and especially rotor parts must to be done precise and well balanced
It is very quiet machine now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
Herbert

[Hans_G]

^^ That's pretty cool. You should sell plans for that, or kits.