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IndustryArena Forum > WoodWorking Machines > DIY CNC Router Table Machines > CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminum Machining
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  1. #1
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    CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminum Machining

    I'm starting a design for a medium size (aiming for 800x620 mm overall size) CNC router with its primary purpose for Aluminum but will do wood also. I've been reading these forums and with this type of machine people generally are going something which sits on a flat table, with dual powered x-axis. Please check out the pictures for my current design progress.

    Goals:
    - 800x620mm overall size, currently translates to ~520x460x100mm work area in the current design
    - Primarily Aluminum, but some woods/plastics etc

    Electronics:
    - NEMA34 Motors on X/Y/Z
    - DMA860H Chinese Motor Controllers
    - 48V Power Supplies

    Rails/Ball Screws:
    - SFU20 Bearings on X/Y.
    - SFU16 on Z-Axis.
    - All 5mm pitch.
    - All Dual HGH2XCA linear bearings.
    - HGR25 on X and HGR20 on Y/Z on the Gantry

    Motor:
    - 2.2kW Air Cooled CN Spindle
    - 2.2k VFD

    Frame:
    - 2pcs 80x120 T-Slot Side Walls
    - 4pcs 80x80 Front, back and two evenly split in the middle
    - Gantry is formed by 16-20mm Aluminum plate with two heavy walled 80x80 T-Slot.

    Key Questions:
    1. Most people recommend 10mm pitch, even for aluminum - should I rethink this choice of 5mm and go to 10mm pitch? Speed is not a goal.
    2. If recommend 10mm, can you mix and match? I need to buy my x and z ball, but y is already brought. X = 10mm, y = 5mm, z = 5mm? Is something like this ok?
    3. Most people are recommending the dual X-axis drive, with a flatbed (no moving parts underneath).
    4. What is the most common milling cutter size for a hobbyist CNC router like this? What length (from the end of spindle) should I assume would be most common?
    5. X-axis is driven under the machine as shown in the picture, will this work?
    6. Where does the spindle commonly get mounted on the plate? And where should the spindle generally sit inside the spindle bracket?
    7. I've already brought 3 x 48V power supplies for the motors/controllers. Will this be enough? Or should I be looking at ~72V?

    Any help is greatly appreciated! I'm about to start a long journey so want to learn from your lessons at the start!

  2. #2
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    There are only a few DIY machines I have found that I was really super impressed with when it comes to performance cutting aluminum.

    The first, is Linux_fan.

    His thread is here:

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/uncat...aluminium.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG3j...ature=emb_logo

    His gantry is aluminum plate, bolted together, filled with Epoxy.

    The second is ThomConcept

    https://www.usinages.com/threads/cnc...uminium.63531/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2RuAwibGS4

    Both designs are worth looking at.

    Recently I've been looking at the omio CNC machines, just out of interest sake, and I've found many YouTube videos of these cutting aluminum really well for what they are. I was really surprised. I think much of this has to do with bit choice, and it looks like people are using 3mm - 6mm single or double flute endmills. I'm curious as to what would happen if they used a longer bit in order to make deeper pockets in thicker stock.

    IMO, the rigidity of your machine and your spindle choice will determine how aggressively you can cut with larger bits and at lower RPM's if that is what you're after.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNMNG9PG7uk

    in the video above, he's claiming a MRR of 3 cubic inches per minute with a single flute 6mm bit, which is super impressive to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    I'm starting a design for a medium size (aiming for 800x620 mm overall size) CNC router with its primary purpose for Aluminum
    Would you be cutting sheet mostly? For example 10mm thick and less? Have you considered the height of a vise for your Z axis?

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    I've been reading these forums and with this type of machine people generally are going something which sits on a flat table, with dual powered x-axis.
    If you're going to go through all of the trouble of designing and building something special, then the dual powered X axis is what I would do. Otherwise I'd consider buying an Omio X8, and modifying it. It's so much darn work to make a machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    Please check out the pictures for my current design progress.
    The flat plate gantry risers and Z axis...... It looks like you are using thick plate, 16-20mm, yeah, that's thick, but even so, look at ThomConcept's design in my previous post. Box type instead of plate is stiffer. Also, he has a box section for the Z axis. You don't need a full box for your Z but at least you can bolt some angle on the sides of the plate to make it less bendy.

    If you reverse how the bearing blocks and rails are mounted on the Z axis, you can get the bearing blocks further apart vertically and possibly squeeze out a bit more Z travel.

    If you want to make a really gucci machine, for your gantry risers, I would consider something like two 1/4" or 3/8" plates with several 1/2" x 2.5" ribs bolted in between them and fill the voids with EG. Also check out Linuxfan's build thread to see what he did for his gantry....

    In general though, I have nothing really negative to say about your design process.

    If you can pick up some surplus bearings from a good manufacturer, Like Bosh Rexroth, NSK, Genuine Hiwin, anything made in Germany, Japan, and perhaps Taiwan, you will be happy with them. I think the Chinese linear bearings can be hit and miss.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    1. Most people recommend 10mm pitch, even for aluminum - should I rethink this choice of 5mm and go to 10mm pitch? Speed is not a goal.
    You mentioned Nema 34 motors.....so you match your ballscrews (lead and diameter) with the motors to get the performance you want to achieve. Many Nema 23's will out perform a high inductance Nema 34 that has way more holding, or low RPM torque.

    A low inductance or mH rating for the motor generally means that it performs better at higher RPM's

    The acceleration you want is also a factor. Do you have any idea what kind of top speed and linear acceleration you want to achieve out of this machine?

    The 10mm lead ballscrews typically allow for a better top speed at a given acceleration based on the rotary inertia math, even for a heavy gantry, when using stepper motors.

    The 5mm lead is totally doable if you are careful about motor selection.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    2. If recommend 10mm, can you mix and match? I need to buy my x and z ball, but y is already brought. X = 10mm, y = 5mm, z = 5mm? Is something like this ok?
    You can. If one ballscrew is significantly longer than the other one, this could be an advantage. But if they are approximately the same length, my preference would be to use the same motors and ballscrews on X and Y.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    4. What is the most common milling cutter size for a hobbyist CNC router like this? What length (from the end of spindle) should I assume would be most common?
    It depends on what you want to cut with it, and whether you want to be able to mount a vise or two to the table. It's different for everyone. I'd suggest drawing up a vise, putting a 3" tall block in it, and look at how that would work with a bit hanging 3.25" out of the spindle. Then look at using a bit with 1/2" of stick out all the way down to the table. Can your design do both of these things?

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    7. I've already brought 3 x 48V power supplies for the motors/controllers. Will this be enough? Or should I be looking at ~72V?
    It should be fine. But must be considered when selecting your motors. Low inductance (mH) steppers perform better at higher RPM's with lower voltages. The higher the inductance, the bigger the difference in performance will be at higher RPM. When looking at a stepper motor, it is the torque that is available at the top speed you want to go to that is important as this is what is available to decelerate the machine. At lower RPM you have more torque.

    Look at this graph:

    Attachment 446040

    Doubling the voltage doesn't change the available torque all that much. It's different for every motor.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    Any help is greatly appreciated! I'm about to start a long journey so want to learn from your lessons at the start!
    On thing to consider is if you really want to do this. It may be a better use of your time to buy something and just get to using it. Sometimes these projects can drag on for a very long time.

  3. #3
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Here's another DIY machine that belongs in the Hall of Fame. I felt bad leaving this one out, even though I am not suggesting that you try to replicate it.

    It just adds to the comparison of DIY machines that can cut aluminum well.

    Made by stef110, his build thread is here:

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/verti...rum-posts.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tR8xnXpEs8

  4. #4
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Hi redding - Don't buy anything until you have completed the design. All parts are connected and the machine must be considered in its whole. If you buy parts then you may compromise other areas. You are designing a mill not a router. Everything will need to be very very stiff. Peter

  5. #5
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Peteeng and Nic77 thank you for the replies!

    NIC77 - Thanks for the links, these are certainly some heavy-duty machines made for some series stuff, but without a doubt a good note to take some lessons from! At this stage I'd be happy with the omio CNC performance, so may try and make something similar.

    Would you be cutting sheet mostly? For example 10mm thick and less? Have you considered the height of a vise for your Z axis?
    Most likely 20mm thick plate and less. I have around 100mm of play which I am hoping which is enough for a vice and a small bit. Good point I will check!

    If you reverse how the bearing blocks and rails are mounted on the Z axis, you can get the bearing blocks further apart vertically and possibly squeeze out a bit more Z travel.

    Do you mean Y-Axis here? Good point, I am thinking I will do this change. This will bring the Z-axis inwards, reducing the moment arm there, at the same time increasing the bearing block distace. That is what I see more commonly on some of these larger machines also.

    If you can pick up some surplus bearings from a good manufacturer, Like Bosh Rexroth, NSK, Genuine Hiwin, anything made in Germany, Japan, and perhaps Taiwan, you will be happy with them. I think the Chinese linear bearings can be hit and miss.

    Learning I'm planning to try and start cheap. I can get them from China direct, from known suppliers with reputation inside China - so going to try my luck. You could be right and I'll waste my money, but as long as they get me going to start with.

    The acceleration you want is also a factor. Do you have any idea what kind of top speed and linear acceleration you want to achieve out of this machine?

    I am not sure sorry - as this is a hobby machine, I am not doing fast production on it. What is a reasonable target do you think?

    On thing to consider is if you really want to do this. It may be a better use of your time to buy something and just get to using it. Sometimes these projects can drag on for a very long time.

    Thanks for the advice - I think I'll enjoy the design and building process. It's the best way to learn (I hope!). Also, I can get parts fairly cheap so I am hoping overall it will be a lot cheaper! I could be very wrong though!

    Changes

    Based on some review on the other designs, I am planning to change:

    1. Move the Y-Axis Linear Bearing blocks to the top and bottom of the 80x80 frames. This will allow me to increase distance between the bearings, and move the whole Z-Axis assembly inwards by about 25mm reducing the moment arm there.

    2. Change to two dual X-Axis steppers, removing the complete undercarriage of the machine, hopefully making it a bit more robust and stable. It will also reduce my side gantry plates by around 200mm so hopefully make that slightly cheaper (or balance out the cost of the extra ball screw/servo/stepper etc). I will buy two 2010 ballscrews with the slightly wider face bearing blocks.

    What do you think?

  6. #6
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Hi Redding - If your footprint is not critical think about a fixed gantry machine much more rigid and suitable for a mill. Ypur Z=100mm is too small, a fixture/vice will chew this up quick sticks...and you need to think about lubrication. You will need lots to do aluminium work....so it will need a tray...Peter

  7. #7
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Good points Peter - Sadly the footprint is important as my partner will kill me if it takes up more space then I am planning! I think you're right, some form of tray is critical - air and lube will certainly need to be used without a doubt. Any suggestions on how people commonly handle this with a moving gantry machine?

  8. #8
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Hi Redding - You will need to build a metal or plastic box. Swarf is not like timber dust. It goes everywhere and is wet. Containment is the answer just like a VMC. So your footprint just grew.
    The z direction is usually quite stiff. The X and Y however need to be very stiff. I think you need to connect the two gantries together and make them deeper. Peter

    ripper – the different CNC – MAXMALI.COM some ideas for you and a good blog of construction and its hiccups.

  9. #9
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    redding
    What kind of tools do you have at your disposal ? Please don't say a hacksaw and a cordless drill
    Sorry if that comes across as rude but sometimes people show up here underestimating how much work it is to build this type of thing. I'm not saying your one of those people.

    CAD CAD and more CAD
    Order material
    Shop for parts
    Wait for parts
    Hmm... need more tools,,,shop for tools
    Cut material
    Oops didn't think of that.... back to CAD
    Damn customs lost my parcel.... shop for parts
    Don't have that tap....shop for tools
    Can't find that fastener local....wait for fasteners in mail
    What ? I need to understand electricity ? I'm doomed !

    Or at least that describes my projects
    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.

  10. #10
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Hi Cyclestart - I thought that sort of thing was just me Peter

  11. #11
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclestart View Post
    redding
    What kind of tools do you have at your disposal ? Please don't say a hacksaw and a cordless drill
    Sorry if that comes across as rude but sometimes people show up here underestimating how much work it is to build this type of thing. I'm not saying your one of those people.

    CAD CAD and more CAD
    Order material
    Shop for parts
    Wait for parts
    Hmm... need more tools,,,shop for tools
    Cut material
    Oops didn't think of that.... back to CAD
    Damn customs lost my parcel.... shop for parts
    Don't have that tap....shop for tools
    Can't find that fastener local....wait for fasteners in mail
    What ? I need to understand electricity ? I'm doomed !

    Or at least that describes my projects
    Of course not - I appreciate your warning and it's a good reminder. I'm expecting this to be a month and a months-long project with many sleepless nights. Here I have all the standard tools (cordless drill, brushless jigsaw, circular saw (with alum cutting blade) grinder, taps etc), but I have a friend with a drill press (or I'll buy one) which I know I'll need!

  12. #12
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    I'm impressed with The Ripper CNC - ripper – the different CNC – MAXMALI.COM
    I'm updating my CAD to be something a bit similar. It seems to cut aluminum fine, I'm hoping mines a bit more rigid then this so hopefully should also be fine.

  13. #13
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    Do you mean Y-Axis here?
    No, I mean the Z axis. Look at TomConcept's design in the video.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    Good point, I am thinking I will do this change. This will bring the Z-axis inwards, reducing the moment arm there, at the same time increasing the bearing block distace. That is what I see more commonly on some of these larger machines also.
    Hmmm.....I personally wouldn't do that. I think it might make it more difficult to build the machine. I'm not saying it's wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    Learning I'm planning to try and start cheap. I can get them from China direct, from known suppliers with reputation inside China - so going to try my luck. You could be right and I'll waste my money, but as long as they get me going to start with.
    Look around, you might be surprised at what you can find. I found my Bosch Rexroth rails on Kijiji. Also there are lots of adds on Aliexpress that say "Genuine Hiwin".

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    I am not sure sorry - as this is a hobby machine, I am not doing fast production on it. What is a reasonable target do you think?
    0.3G and 300 IPM. You're probably not going to get that with 5mm lead. Off the top of my head, maybe 150 IPM @0.3G with the 5mm lead, which should be fine.

    Based on your design, and your probable spindle, you'll want to do fast light cuts with a single flute 6mm bit running at high RPM to get a decent material removal rate. And that's with intelligent CAM, adaptive tool paths.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    Thanks for the advice - I think I'll enjoy the design and building process. It's the best way to learn (I hope!). Also, I can get parts fairly cheap so I am hoping overall it will be a lot cheaper! I could be very wrong though!
    It won't be. The costs add up to bite you. And sometimes you can try real hard and still fail with mediocre results, which hurts, I know. Do you really want to learn about making machines anyway, or just having fun using one? Because making a machine doesn't necessarily teach you all that much about how to use it. I'm playing the devil's advocate here, I know. But if you're set on building one, hey, welcome to the club!

    Have you already bought your drivers? I'm considering using these ones myself on some Nema 23's

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000569715442.html

    The trinamic chipset might be a game changer for inexpensive stepper drivers.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    I will buy two 2010 ballscrews with the slightly wider face bearing blocks.
    Wider face bearing blocks? Back when I was looking at ballscrews, I went with 25mm diameter. I wanted to use the BK15 end supports....when I looked at the end machining for a 20mm diameter ballscrew for a BK15, it didn't look right, I didn't think there was enough meat on there when you consider the depth of the grooves. I wouldn't buy any more parts until your design is finalized.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    Good points Peter - Sadly the footprint is important as my partner will kill me if it takes up more space then I am planning! I think you're right, some form of tray is critical - air and lube will certainly need to be used without a doubt. Any suggestions on how people commonly handle this with a moving gantry machine?
    Are you planning on doing this in the living room or the garage? I used to have a garage myself, now I don't, and it really sucks. Perhaps you live in an apartment, I don't know? People commonly handle this by doing it somewhere with a concrete floor and sweeping up the chips, that do seem to get everywhere. Also wearing shoes so you don't get them stuck in your socks, or sandals, LOL. A smaller percentage of people will make an enclosure for noise and cleanliness, and it might be something to consider. But I've seen some DIY enclosures made that take up a huge amount of space (in pictures), and most mills don't have any enclosures. I'm talking about proper mills, like a bridgeport, for example.

    Personally, I think MDF makes a heck of alot more mess.

    Routers cutting wood often have vacuums, but I know that aluminum chips can clog up a vacuum hose.

    Commercial VMC's come with an enclosure and a chip removal system that feeds the chips out of the machine and directly into a can. Chips take up alot of volume compared to solid aluminum.

    Any enclosure would need to be thought out so you can access the table. On a larger router, the enclosure would need to be a room. My first CNC machine had a cutting area of 5' x 10'. The garage was the enclosure. Plywood is fine for an enclosure, just throw a bit of varnish on there.

    Quote Originally Posted by redding View Post
    I'm impressed with The Ripper CNC - ripper – the different CNC – MAXMALI.COM
    I'm updating my CAD to be something a bit similar. It seems to cut aluminum fine, I'm hoping mines a bit more rigid then this so hopefully should also be fine.
    I really hate criticizing someone else's DIY projects behind their back, or at all even, unless it asked for by requesting feedback and suggestions from the person who made it or designed it, or I feel that I am helping them in some way. I prefer to look for something I can praise. BUT I just realized that this is an advertisement for for a commercial venture to entice people to buy plans. Flame on, it's fair game.

    How do I respond to this politely? I'm really trying here.

    Yes, there are some good points to take away from this design.

    The Good:

    The ribs on the gantry risers. Yes, flat plates like to bend. Even something simple like ribs on the side can make a big difference.

    The ribs joining the top and bottom sections of the gantry, shown in the CAD model at 1:24 of the video in that link....those are a good idea...I was going to say that to you before, to add some ribs joining your top and bottom. But he never actually put them in the finished product, so you will only see them in the CAD model.

    What I was saying about the Z axis, putting the rails on the Z axis part that moves and leaving the bearings stationary...he did that.

    The linear bearings on the gantry are far apart....that's nice.

    Nice looking build, obviously someone with alot of pride in their work and attention to detail made this.

    The Bad:

    This design was clearly made with the intent of being light weight. This is a problem. He didn't understand how much his performance would change by making things heavier. The rotational inertia of the ballscrew is often the dominating factor that uses up motor torque when compared to the weight of the gantry. There was zero point to cutting lightening holes in his gantry risers (looks cool, but bad idea).

    If this gantry weighed three times what it does now, to add some extra rigidity, the machine would perform better.

    His Z axis is a flat plate (not ideal if you want to "mill aluminum")....and he even cut out lightening holes in it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxmali.com
    ripper fusions the needs required for fast shape-cutting in wood/PVC and the strength and stiffness required for milling in aluminum and copper.
    It does not have the strength and stiffness required to mill aluminum at even what I would consider a level of mediocre. He was able to get away with using a very small diameter single flute bit, with very small cutting forces that in no way demonstrates the lack of rigidity of the machine. He was also able to do some very light cuts with what is presumably a sharp new bit.

    Where is the video of this thing actually hogging out a block of aluminum to make something useful? Something real to back up his boastful claims?

    IMO, a stock OMIO X8 would easily beat this machine at cutting aluminum plate. And part of that is because it's smaller, the deflection of a beam being proportional to the length cubed, and has less Z axis travel. The faults of the Omio are to save money during manufacturing, the faults of the Maxmali are not understanding physics. Also, the omio markets it's self as an "engraver". It's a more honest statement.

    I'm of the opinion that if you were to use this machine with the intent of milling aluminum on a regular basis, you would be so very frustrated.

    Rant Over

  14. #14
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Here is another design for comparison. I'm guessing that having the vise lift up the aluminum so that the z axis travel was shorter was helpful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyVr35pgx7s

    And here he is talking about the build and design

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKPKe19Dh9s

    IMO, pretty cool build.

  15. #15
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Hi -The prior machine is really well thought out and executed. Everything is beefy. High rails, long bearings, mated parts with grooves, list goes on, extra thick and large extrusions. Would be good to see long shot of machine. grrrrrrrrrr The sound of it cutting and the stream of chips flying says it all.... Peter

    you should consider a high rail design, this eliminates the columns and gets the bearings and drive up away from the flying swarf...

  16. #16
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    ripper – the different CNC – MAXMALI.COM some ideas for you and a good blog of construction and its hiccups.
    That's true. The blog is pretty good for looking at the construction and it's hiccups. Also different techniques in construction and how to work with metals. I agree with what you said there.

  17. #17
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Nice design

  18. #18
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    aluminum linear rails recommend www.ccmrails.com

  19. #19
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    Hi.
    On my machine i have found that one of those cheap chinese misting units are great. I use metholated spirits with the air blast and its fantasic for cutting aluminium. Also make sure your enclosure is as high as you can go. You'll be surprised at how far chips can travel.

  20. #20
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    Re: CNC Router - Medium Size with Focus on Aluminun Machining

    V2 and Redding - Yes chips do really fly. A high rail design is easier to enclose, just extend the walls. Peter

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