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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    29

    Question Toshiba TB6600

    I see the Toshiba TB6600 Stepping Motor Driver Board.

    Ebay item 170923696690

    Someone used this?
    What experiences have on?
    I would like to know your comments on this drive.

    Document:
    TB6600HG.pdf
    TB6600HQ_datasheet.pdf
    TB6600_Module_Schematic.pdf

  2. #2
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    Jan 2010
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    The specs and price certainly look interesting.

    I do not have any experience with it, however.

  3. #3
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    It looks impressive. To bad it's not readily available yet.

  4. #4
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    There is a similar chip wich is available everywhere: THB6064AH.

    Their electrical spec's are exactly the same but the THB6064AH has more options: more microstepping modes, decay settings and easier idle current configuration. The TB6600 has the advantage of an internal 5V regulator, but can't find how much output current it can deliver.

    The implementation of the chip in this drive and overall design could be a lot better.
    I see major problems with the chip mounting, it's squeezed between the PCB and heatsink, the space between the pin rows is 4mm thus the pins need severe bending for soldering on both sides of a 1.6mm thick PCB. This might create mechanical stress during thermal cycles and broken pins.
    The choice of resistor value on the alert led violates the 1mA specification.
    The main filter capacitor is too small, it can't be a good low esr type, it will heat up and fail pretty soon.
    The current resistors are standard SMD, their inductance creates irregular current regulation and hissing in the motor.

    This is what I can see from the pictures, there might be more.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucas View Post
    The current resistors are standard SMD, their inductance creates irregular current regulation and hissing in the motor.
    Do they have enough inductance to matter? I'm using regular .05r chip resistors. There's a slight hiss if the current is set above 4 amps.

    What resistors do you recommend?

  6. #6
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    Their inductance is important, some brands mention current sense application in their datasheet but not the inductive value or use in switching applications.
    I use the WSR2 series in my THB6065 design, these have everything in the datasheet. They are also much larger and more expensive than similar rated standard chip resistors.

  7. #7
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    Due to their small physical size, I would never have expected that the inductance of chip resistors might be large enough to make a difference. In fact, I have used them in VHF and UHF circuits without giving any thought to possible inductance effects (well, in those circuits, you do have to pay attention to even the inductance of PC board traces). I'll have to take that into consideration in the future.

  8. #8
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    Thanks. I'll try them as an experiment. The noise is not noticeable on my dsp drive because I turn off the PID current control loop at standstill. My cpld drive hisses slightly at certain steps. Are your drives completely silent?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
    Due to their small physical size, I would never have expected that the inductance of chip resistors might be large enough to make a difference. In fact, I have used them in VHF and UHF circuits without giving any thought to possible inductance effects (well, in those circuits, you do have to pay attention to even the inductance of PC board traces). I'll have to take that into consideration in the future.
    The parasitic inductance indeed depends on the size and contruction method, it is neglectable for normal values but becomes important for low value and bigger sizes. There is no problem with a 1K 805.
    Inductance of PCB traces is just as important when switching inductive loads at 4AMps and more at +20kHz creating high power spikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by H500 View Post
    Thanks. I'll try them as an experiment. The noise is not noticeable on my dsp drive because I turn off the PID current control loop at standstill. My cpld drive hisses slightly at certain steps. Are your drives completely silent?
    The THB6064 is dead silent with those WSR resistors, the CPLD hisses also but the resistors here are normal ones. I didn't find time (and priority) to try it out on this drive.

  10. #10
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    Feb 2012
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    29

    Question

    I appreciate your time and attention given this.

    I bought it and I'm waiting for the shipping.

    I'm no expert in electronics,
    probably I can not straighten the chip.

    But I can change the capacitor to another value,
    How much capacitance do you recommend?

    I do not know exactly which relate resistance.
    If you mean the resistors R6, R14, R15, R16, R17, R18 (R680).
    I can perhaps also by the change WSR2.
    But which are?

    I do not know what I can do with the problem led alert.
    How to send alert signal to pin 13 (EStop)?

    I wonder how serve antirreversa diodes,
    Be can add diodes to the circuit?

    My doubts are multiplied exponentially. -LOL-

  11. #11
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    There's not very much you can do:
    -The capacitor value is good, but it needs to be another type: Panasonic UF series are know to be one of the best, I'm using this one also, not cheap.
    - The pins are bend and you can't correct if not done properly.
    - The WSR2 is far too large, it can't replace the existing ones.
    - you could change the resistor on the alert pin to a higher value (3K9 or 4K7) but bringing it out to the Estop will require major changes to obtain a reliable configuration.
    - The diodes on the my THB6064 design didn't have much effect, this chip is similar so I don't think you will gain much, maybe a few degrees temperature reduction, not worthwhile to install them.

    I would replace the cap and change or remove the alert resistor and try the drive with conservative settings and see how it goes.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    1397
    That TB6064AH board, chip and a kit of all parts is also available in the USA from:
    Stepper Motors
    James hosts the single best wiki page about steppers for CNC hobbyists on the net:
    http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/steppers.htm Disagree? Tell him what's missing! ,o)

  13. #13
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by lucas View Post
    - The diodes on the my THB6064 design didn't have much effect, this chip is similar so I don't think you will gain much, maybe a few degrees temperature reduction, not worthwhile to install them.
    In the datasheet TB6560 or TB6600:
    I do not see, if the IC has included (buildin) the diodes.
    THB6064 included buildin the diodes?

    Why would anyone in their h-bridge design include diodes?

    Why desiden others that are not important?

    Using them Prolongs transistor ?

    Do not use them, gradually deteriorates transistors?
    soft deterior?

    Do not include a way to slowly deteriorate the circuit, so that at some point the customer having to buy another?

    Exactly what happens and we're talking about?

    Well I do not know much about electronics,
    I read a bit, and then hise some calculations:

    With 3Amp motor and 7 mH.

    Time off transistor, switching transistor Output characteristics (time tf)
    TB6560 is 1.0 ms = 0.000001 sec.
    TB6600 is 0.5 ms = 0.0000005 sec.

    The spike volt = H * A / sec.

    With TB6560 = 0.007 * 3 / 0.000001 = 21,000 Volts
    With TB6600 = 0.007 * 3 / 0.0000005 = 42,000 Volts

    Please review these calculations, it could be a mistake.
    I do not know whether that voltage is enough to make a arc.

    I do not know how to calculate the duration of the peak,
    I would like to know how to calculate it.
    Also like to know how to calculate the peak current (ampere).
    Maybe then I could choose a diode or decide not diode.
    What is the best diode for this?
    How as you do for deciding not to install diodes?
    you, as you do?

    I wish I knew.

    My doubts are multiplied exponentially. -LOL-

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by riphet View Post
    Why would anyone in their h-bridge design include diodes?
    Have a look in the datasheet at the current paths through the components in all modes.
    You will notice that in some cases there's current flowing through the internal diodes integrated in the mosfets's. Their spec's are not really good for some chip's: not fast enough or to high VF.
    This creates additional power to be dissipated.

    This current will flow through the external diodes when good and fast ones are used and this will reduce the chip's heatdissipation.
    There are other reasons also but heat reduction is the most important.

  15. #15
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by lucas View Post
    Have a look in the datasheet at the current paths through the components in all modes.
    You will notice that in some cases there's current flowing through the internal diodes integrated in the mosfets's. Their spec's are not really good for some chip's: not fast enough or to high VF.
    This creates additional power to be dissipated.

    This current will flow through the external diodes when good and fast ones are used and this will reduce the chip's heatdissipation.
    There are other reasons also but heat reduction is the most important.
    Indeed in the datasheet is written:

    "Note: Parasitic diodes are indicated on the designed lines. However, these are not normally used in Mixed Decay mode. "

    "As shown in the figure above, an output transistor has parasitic diodes.
    Normally, when the energy of the coil is drawn out, each transistor is turned ON and the power flows in the
    opposite-to-normal direction; as a result, the parasitic diode is not used. However, when all the output
    transistors are forced OFF, the coil energy is drawn out via the parasitic diode."


    Only when transistors are forced OFF...
    That's like a car makes a journey very well, only heats when turned off.

    I understand that: Tturn off the last step of each half cycle,
    As off twice per cycle. This is in any mode.

    Or is it the case that when it passes through zero, some transistor is turned on?

    My idea is not to dissipate heat, but that energy regenerating prosecute. I understand that even the existence of regenerating ohm causes heat. But at least most regenerated.

    That's my idea, use the correct diodes.
    But how fast is fast?
    So, I'm looking to calculate the duration of the peak. And also current.

    I appreciate any related information.

  16. #16
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by James Newton View Post
    That TB6064AH board, chip and a kit of all parts is also available in the USA from:
    Stepper Motors
    At this time, no more eBay tb6600 drives for sale.

    If I needed a driver now,
    without hesitation,
    this is the buy.

    I would order only sold me with "diodes includeded" option ,
    for induction peaks 7 ~ 9mH. 3 ~ 4 Amp.

  17. #17
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    No current will flow through the external diodes unless you're in the slow decade mode with the proper transistor turned off. That is not normally a desirable mode of operation. Unless your chip supports that mode, the diodes won't do much.

    I think you are trying to calculate irrelevant parameters.

  18. #18
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by H500 View Post
    No current will flow through the external diodes unless you're in the slow decade mode with the proper transistor turned off. That is not normally a desirable mode of operation. Unless your chip supports that mode, the diodes won't do much.

    I think you are trying to calculate irrelevant parameters.
    I can I respect you, that:
    You think anything is irrelevant and insignificant,
    I do not approve but I respect it, so be it for you.

    You should be powerful, capable of despising anything.
    You are ignorant of the answer to my questions, then decides to belittle. I understand that you are not obligated to answer my questions. Anyway, I appreciate your time and attention.

    I am interested, because I think you referred to earlier warming, should not be solved only with heat sinks. And that energy, it also damages the chip, can be recycled.

    More, I can save the energy needed for the fan heatsink.

    Then,
    How I can calculate the correct mode of operation of the chip?
    How to calculate the heat of the chip?
    What is the origin of this warming?

  19. #19
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    I'm not belittling anything. I'm just telling you that you are not calculating the right things. Most of the heat comes from the I^2 *R losses through the mosfets. The datasheet tells you how to calculate that.

    Read up on decay modes. The external diodes won't carry any current unless you turn off the proper fets during decay.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by H500 View Post
    I'm not belittling anything. I'm just telling you that you are not calculating the right things. Most of the heat comes from the I^2 *R losses through the mosfets. The datasheet tells you how to calculate that.

    Read up on decay modes. The external diodes won't carry any current unless you turn off the proper fets during decay.
    Yes, it is that you only refers to the heat generated by the IC.
    Ignoring kickback , which is to cut the power to the coil.

    As explained above, this can reach over 42Kv. the example presented.

    The energy stored in the inductor is: W = (LI^2)/2.

    Data above example: 0.007*9/2 = 0.0315 Joules
    Energy that is returned to the mosfet in just only one kickback.

    The heat generated by the kickback (internal arc), must be multiplied by the frequency step *2/8 (1/2 step).

    Of course we have to add the heat generated by the IC itself.

    All these calculations have not comprovado could be wrong.
    But I find it more than 26W minute @ 500RPM, 400PPR, half step, 3Amp, 7MH. Only kicks back. You need to add the heating of the chip.

    From the tb6560 datasheet:
    "Power Dissipation
    The power dissipation of the IC can be calculated by the following equation:
    P = VDD × IDD + IOUT × IOUT × Ron × 2 phases"


    But I have not completely clear this matter, I am no expert in electronics, I would like to know more about this.

    For all the above, I think that energy dissipated as extra heat can be recycled and stop damaging the ICs. What do you think?

    I appreciate any related information.
    (I also appreciate any kind of scholarship or sponsorship. May be offered give me

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