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IndustryArena Forum > WoodWorking Machines > DIY CNC Router Table Machines > Avid CNC > CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise
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  1. #1
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    CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    I am finishing up a 4'x4' 80/20 extrusion custom build. I purchased Avid CNC's Pro 12" Ballscrew Z axis. While in the process of making sure everything works as it should, and adjusting my limit switches, I noticed a clicking noise when moving Z up and down. When I move it up, I get one click. If I move it up again, no click. If I then move it down, I get one click. If I move it further down, no click. So, I get one click with every change in direction. There is no correlation along the travel distance. It clicks no matter where.

    I've checked all the couplings. Everything's tight. Before I mounted my NEMA 34 stepper, I manually moved the axis up and down. Everything seemed smooth. I haven't yet measured Z for backlash yet. That's coming up on my to do list in the next couple of days. I'm guessing the click will correlate to some degree of backlash. Oh, and the axis came greased, so that's not an issue.

    For those of you with the Pro Ballscrew Z axis, is this click normal? If it is, do you know what's causing it?

    Before you make the suggestion, yes, I sent an email to Avid about it late afternoon on Thursday. I thought I might get a reply yesterday, but no such luck. I'll probably receive a reply Monday or Tuesday. I'm posting here so I can possibly get a head start on things. I'm reluctant to move forward, until I get a handle on what's going on.

    Thank you in advance,

    Gary

  2. #2
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Have you greased it? It may just be the balls moving in the nut.
    Gerry

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  3. #3
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    I am having a similar problem with my 12" Z-Axis. When it was new, it had clicks only every once in a while. Now, the clicking is very frequent. It makes multiple clicks on either up or down. Greasing the screw and linear bearings made no improvement.

    I found a problem with the upper bearing on the ball screw shaft. It was able to slide up and down inside the housing by several thousandths. Due to the radius of the outer edge of the bearing and the radius of the underside of the screw heads, the bearing had slop in it, and was able to slide up and down. Adding a flat washer under the three screws fixed the backlash problem. However, the clicking noise remains.

    I also notice the round cylinder above the bottom bearing wobbles when the shaft rotates. I haven't figured out what its purpose is. I don't think that is where the clicking noise is coming from. It sounds like the noise comes from the ball screw nut.

    I was considering contacting AVID CNC soon. I am getting concerned that it may have a failure. I am hoping that it is just noisy.

    David

  4. #4
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Have you greased it? It may just be the balls moving in the nut.
    It came greased. There was red grease on the ball screw and some grease squeeze out at the ends of the bearing blocks on the linear rails.

    I looked at the Avid build instructions for their Pro Machines. Interestingly, there are no instructions for greasing anything on the Z axis. I haven't looked closely at the ball screw nut to see if there is a place to grease directly into the nut. I'm not home now; I'll check when I get home tomorrow. If the nut is filled with grease, I wouldn't think there would be clicking. If grease was applied to just the screw, maybe that would account for the clicking.

    It occurred to me that it could be balls moving in the nut, but having no experience with ball nuts/ball screws, I didn't know whether such a thing could occur. I guess it can.

    Thanks for weighing in.

    Gary

  5. #5
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by dws View Post
    I am having a similar problem with my 12" Z-Axis. When it was new, it had clicks only every once in a while. Now, the clicking is very frequent. It makes multiple clicks on either up or down. Greasing the screw and linear bearings made no improvement.

    I found a problem with the upper bearing on the ball screw shaft. It was able to slide up and down inside the housing by several thousandths. Due to the radius of the outer edge of the bearing and the radius of the underside of the screw heads, the bearing had slop in it, and was able to slide up and down. Adding a flat washer under the three screws fixed the backlash problem. However, the clicking noise remains.

    I also notice the round cylinder above the bottom bearing wobbles when the shaft rotates. I haven't figured out what its purpose is. I don't think that is where the clicking noise is coming from. It sounds like the noise comes from the ball screw nut.

    I was considering contacting AVID CNC soon. I am getting concerned that it may have a failure. I am hoping that it is just noisy.

    David

    Thank you, David. I'll check on the things you pointed out as issues. I sure hope I don't have issues with slop/blacklash. I sure don't want to remove the axis and dismantle it.

    See Gerry's (ger21) comments above. Maybe it's the ball movement in the ball nut. I have had difficulty isolating the sound, but I cannot rule out the ball nut.

    Like you, I was "hoping that is just noisy."

    Hopefully, some other Avid CNC Pro Series owners will stop by and let us know about their experiences. In any event, I report on what I hear from Avid so you will know what I learn.

    Gary

  6. #6
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Gary,

    AVID CNC recently posted some YouTube videos on greasing: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUU...I66UPUohD-Dkeg I didn't see any mention of greasing the nut; only the screw and linear bearings.

    With the backlash, I was only having issues with drilling holes. Otherwise the weight of the spindle, keeps the Z-Axis in the down position. I was able to lift the spindle by hand to notice the slop in the upper bearing. You only have to remove the dust covers to get access to the upper bearing/screws. If there is a problem with the ball nut or the lower cylinder piece, then I would also regret having to disassemble the whole Z-Axis.

    David

  7. #7
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by dws View Post
    I am having a similar problem with my 12" Z-Axis. When it was new, it had clicks only every once in a while. Now, the clicking is very frequent. It makes multiple clicks on either up or down. Greasing the screw and linear bearings made no improvement.

    David
    Check that these grub screws are tight and that the ballscrew ends are firmly located. Mine were loose and they do come loose without loctite.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Screen Shot 2019-06-30 at 10.33.29 am.jpg  

  8. #8
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewwong2000 View Post
    Check that these grub screws are tight and that the ballscrew ends are firmly located. Mine were loose and they do come loose without loctite.
    I just rechecked the screws in the collar (shown in green in your picture). They are still tight. However, the gray colored sleeve just below the green collar shown in your picture is loose. It won't rotate; however, when I run the Z-Axis up and down, it wobbles even when I hold onto it. The ball screw ends seem to be stable. Do you have any idea what is wrong with my Z-Axis?

  9. #9
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewwong2000 View Post
    Check that these grub screws are tight and that the ballscrew ends are firmly located. Mine were loose and they do come loose without loctite.


    Thank you, Andrew. I checked all the fasteners and all are tight, except one that was missing. At the top end, there is a part on the ballscrew that is circular, but with 2 flats on opposing sides. It is directly below the Oldham coupler. On the curved surfaces, there are two threaded holes on opposite sides. One had a set/grub screw in it and it was tight. On the opposing side, no screw. I didn't know whether that was intentional, or someone forgot to put in the 2nd screw.

    I'll have to go back and check the grub screw you referenced. I don't recall seeing one there.

    Gary

  10. #10
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    The green coloured sleeve with the grub screws in it holds the Oldham collar down.. so if the grub screws are tight but the collar is too high from the bottom, then the Oldham collar will wobble loose and rattle/click. I had lightly push the Oldham collar and sleeve down so that it sits snugly and then tighten up the grub screws again.

    If your grub screws are tight and the collar won't shift, but the Oldham collar can move vertically.. then re-adjust.

    This was my problem but may not be yours.

  11. #11
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Thanks Andrew. I think that re-adjusting the collar as you suggested fixed the problem. It is much quieter now.

    David

  12. #12
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewwong2000 View Post
    The green coloured sleeve with the grub screws in it holds the Oldham collar down.. so if the grub screws are tight but the collar is too high from the bottom, then the Oldham collar will wobble loose and rattle/click. I had lightly push the Oldham collar and sleeve down so that it sits snugly and then tighten up the grub screws again.

    If your grub screws are tight and the collar won't shift, but the Oldham collar can move vertically.. then re-adjust.

    This was my problem but may not be yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by dws View Post
    Thanks Andrew. I think that re-adjusting the collar as you suggested fixed the problem. It is much quieter now.

    David

    Thanks, guys. Sounds promising.

    Gary

  13. #13
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    I'm back home and checked out the collar at the bottom end of the Z axis. This time around, I was able to isolate the source of the clicking. The collar Andrew referenced sits on top of the blue part shown in his illustration and turns with the ball screw. The blue part remains stationary (at least sort of). It's that blue part that's clicking. When I rotate the axis in one direction, the blue part rotates ever so slightly and makes a clicking noise. When I rotate the axis in the other direction, the blue part rotates back and clicks.

    I was able to replicate the click without running the stepper. With the stepper engaged, I was able to move the blue part that tiny bit by hand and get the click. However, the click was far less audible than when moving the axis with the stepper. Interestingly, with the control system turned completely off, I was not able to move the blue part. I'm sure there must be a simple explanation for the different behavior with the stepper turned on and off, but I'm not seeing it. Seems to me the situation should be reversed. When the stepper is locked, everything should be tighter; when turned off, looser.

    The blue part has 3 slots cut in it. Looking at the bottom of the axis, I noticed a hole with a spring pin inserted in it. The pin appear to align with the rearmost slot in the blue part. Looking over everything carefully, I cannot see any purpose for the spring, except to go into that slot. So, putting it all together, it looks as like the rotation/counter rotation is causing that blue part to contact the spring pin and make the click.

    I put Avid CNC's Z axis .step file into Fusion 360 and started pealing back the onion to see if I could figure out what the different parts are designed to do and how it all fits together.

    There appears to be a bearing seated in a circular part and the circular part pressed into the bottom plate. I assume the bearing holder is pressed in, because I don't find anything fixing it. The bottom of the ball screw shaft rides in the bearing.

    The bottom plate appears to have a counterbore on the top (up) side. The blue part sits in the counterbore. There isn't a discrete part shown for the spring pin, but when viewed from the top side, a hole where the pin is inserted is shown. Oddly, the hole isn't shown from the bottom side in the .step file. The collar we've been talking about sits on top of the blue part, as shown in Andrew's illustration.

    I haven't been able to divine the purpose of the blue part, except to take up the balance of turned part of the ball screw shaft and to provide a bearing surface for the collar Andrew drew our attention to.

    I looked for slop that the collar is used to adjust out and didn't find any. I went ahead and loosened the collar and tried adjusting it, but I really didn't do anything. Of course, the clicking persists, because it collar doesn't appear to have anything to do with it. If I'm correct about the spring pin fitting into the blue part's slot, it looks like the click is just a fact of life - nothing to do about it.

    One other thing. I found the hole for greasing the ball screw nut . On mine, it's on the left side as you are facing the axis. It's actually angled a little toward the front, but you should be able to get to it with a needle fitting on a grease gun. I noticed grease around the hole, so my nut appears to have come greased, which is consistent with the grease I saw on the ball screw threads.

    Thoughts?

    Gary

  14. #14
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    CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Yes Gary the clicking is nothing serious unless the green sleeve is so loose that the Oldham collar pops up out of the seat

    Says the guy who accidentally used the auto zero macro without the touch plate and sent my 60mm surfacing bit straight into my work and stalled the spindle and the rest

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewwong2000 View Post

    Says the guy who accidentally used the auto zero macro without the touch plate and sent my 60mm surfacing bit straight into my work and stalled the spindle and the rest

    Yikes!!!

  16. #16
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    This may have no bearing on the issue being discussed, but thought I'd throw it out there for consideration.

    I bought a Pro 4824 last year with the 12" Z axis. Knowing that I'd have a ceiling clearance issue, I had the Z axis shortened by 2". In the process of disassembly I noticed a double row bearing was kinda of notchy as I turned it. I expect to be doing mostly 3D stuff, so I chose to replace the bearing (on Amazon for $6). There were some other things that needed attention as well, but I didn't bring any of them up with CNCRP because with the modifications, they weren't likely to honor a warranty claim. My sense is that the Z axis is something they sub out, so they may not know about any of the issues discussed here.

    The service from CNCRP, by the way, has been great with everything else, so no complaints here.

  17. #17
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by MARV View Post
    This may have no bearing on the issue being discussed, but thought I'd throw it out there for consideration.

    I bought a Pro 4824 last year with the 12" Z axis. Knowing that I'd have a ceiling clearance issue, I had the Z axis shortened by 2". In the process of disassembly I noticed a double row bearing was kinda of notchy as I turned it. I expect to be doing mostly 3D stuff, so I chose to replace the bearing (on Amazon for $6). There were some other things that needed attention as well, but I didn't bring any of them up with CNCRP because with the modifications, they weren't likely to honor a warranty claim. My sense is that the Z axis is something they sub out, so they may not know about any of the issues discussed here.

    The service from CNCRP, by the way, has been great with everything else, so no complaints here.

    Thank you, Marv. Good information.

    Where was the notchy bearing located on the axis? At the bottom of the axis?

    Gary

  18. #18
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    I guess I am confused. Are you talking about the bearings at the top and bottom of the screw or the ball nut? I checked mine last night and there is Zero play in my Z axis, slides. screw bearing or nut. I can turn the coupling with my fingers and raise and lower the carriage. Does yours have play anywhere? Perhaps the coupling.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  19. #19
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I guess I am confused. Are you talking about the bearings at the top and bottom of the screw or the ball nut? I checked mine last night and there is Zero play in my Z axis, slides. screw bearing or nut. I can turn the coupling with my fingers and raise and lower the carriage. Does yours have play anywhere? Perhaps the coupling.

    No play anywhere, Bill. The thread started with a question about a clicking noise. Play was offered as a possible cause. I didn't have have any play, and as described previously, I isolated the source of the clicking, which didn't involve play.

    Don't you have a different Z axis assembly? Were's talking about the Avid CNC Pro ballscrew Z axis. Good to know your FLA Z axis works well, though.

    Gary

  20. #20
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    Re: CNCRP/Avid CNC Pro Ballscrew Z Axis (12") Making Clicking Noise

    There is a bearing block attached to the stationary back plate just under the servo connection at the top that positions the ball screw in three planes. The double row bearing is housed in that block. The single row bearing at the bottom also positions the ball screw, but only radially. The nature of its mounting suggests the ball screw is intended to slip in the bearing 9or its housing) to accommodate expansion and contraction vertically. It was the bearing at the top that had a notch as I turned it (by hand).

    As I recall, the drawing I got from CNCRP of the Z axis was slightly different then what I actually got. I assumed it was simply a progression in their design. I should also mention that I am in the final testing phase of my CNC and it hasn't actually been run yet, so there may be other "gremlins" to chase down.

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