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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Okuma > Multus B300W fiasco
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8

    Multus B300W fiasco

    Has anyone experienced similar problems as we have? Let me explain.
    We bought our Multus B300W just before IMTS'08. Upon arriving some of the options we're not available for 3 months so we had to sign off incomplete and pay the piper. So no power there.
    Within the 1st month we had to have the software re-installed everyday for a week.
    It took another couple months to work through many Alarms, getting Featurecam to generate the right code, and tweaking, tweaking, tweaking Caron Engineering's TMAC tool monitoring software.
    Over the next year I spent every day on the phone & email with Caron trouble shooting alarms.
    Caron Eng eventually says to return a board and they'll modify it, and send fresh software. Then they say I need an API software from Okuma.
    All arrives and is installed.
    BTW, I have a close friend that is an Okuma Certified Master Tech and Apps guy. I'm hiring him to deal with all the fuss because I have a business to run, not just one machine.
    Along with the TMAC alarms, I continually got Thermal over temp alarms. Even when the Multus was just sitting idle, or just started up in the morning.
    Also had tool changer lock ups. The sensor in the magazine would either be covered in sludge or Okuma told me I need to take all the black Capto tools and polish them shinny.
    Eventually Okuma personnel arrived and they changed the temp setting on the spindle chiller unit, which stopped the Thermal Alarms.
    Shortly after that, tools began getting stuck in the spindle, then began hanging out of the spindle. I learn there's a gas spring for the drawbar that has failed. Luckily it's under warranty because it's a $10k part.
    All along I have a feeling something else is wrong because tool changes are crazy long. The turret will just sit there for seconds then do the tool change.
    Well, sure enough, Okuma and local service are in my shop again taking the turret out to find dissolved hydraulic seals. Velocite oil mixing in the Hydraulic oil. They end up Overnight shipping/Saturday morning deliver a new hydraulic manifold. That's installed early the next week. It took 3 tries to get it in without tearing seals. Then remember the dissolved seals, well all those bit are throughout the hydraulic system. I was asked to run parts and we'll clean the valves every time the turret locks up due to contaminants.
    I finally insisted they flush the entire hydraulic system.
    Which they tried and stuff still was working it's way to the valves and stopping production.
    Sometime around Thanksgiving the gas spring drawbar that was replaced 5 months earlier failed again. Okuma personnel and local service again tearing it down and trying to figure out what, why, and how to fix it.
    They tell me I need coolant tubes for the tools. $5k later coolant tubes are in. Tool magazine tosses tools because it's not made to accommodate the tubes. More days down modifying the tool shuttle in the magazine.
    Shortly after Christmas the Turret has to be removed again. I went on vacation and let Okuma take over my shop. Please fix it while I'm gone. I was told the turret was in & out at least 3X.
    I get back from vacation and try to run production. The parts catcher is clunking and tilting back into the machine. I ask service what happened. They swear nothing. Well for the past 2 months they cannot fix the parts catcher. Earlier this week I tried to run production again and after 10hrs of parts, something locked up with the tool changer. The springs that clamp the tool shank when in the swing arm were crumbled. Rotted away like I've never seen metal rot. Well, it's back online again tonight. Let's see what else can break on it.
    Oh yeah, there's a set screw plug on the bottom of the turret. Get a 10mm Allen wrench and pull it. Get a cup and see if anything comes out. I'm finding lots of Velocite oil with black particulate. Seals must be dissolving again.

    Has anyone had any where near the bad luck I've had?
    I only have 6 months left on my warranty......

    Tonight I setup to run a part where half the features are cut using Y axis in T200 position. After running one part and measuring I discovered Y axis is out of position by 0.010". One feature is a hole that is drilled from both sides off center. When this part is finished a pin is supposed to be able to pass though the entire width of the part. Last month I notified Okuma and local service the Y axis is out 0.005". I could still get the pin through but it was tight.
    Tonight, the pin will no longer go through. Okuma personnel were onsite 2/18/10 pulling the turret to to fix the 0.005" in Y axis. This week it's worse.
    Obviously Okuma will have to come back next week and tear it all down again.

    Has anyone had to request Okuma to take a machine back?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    202
    Yes, Yes and Yes. Being a former AE for an Okuma dealer, I would not recommend a Multus to anyone. I take that back, if you had a killer hand tool collection and lots of time, I would say buy two of them.

    We put a B300 across the parking lot from us. Really awesome cause the customer can see you in your office while looking thru the window. This machine was put in the replace an Intergrex. It has been plaqued with issues. I never put a post processor on the builder.

    This machine has turret issues, thermal issues, consistency, etc, etc. The customer actually came to the showroom to run parts on, as they could not hold size in their building on their Multus. Our showroom was far from temperature controlled and yes, our Multus could not make them in print either. We were so desperate; we ran their parts on a demo day hoping to please the customer. Very strange indeed.

    This machine also has limit issues, and when service works on the machine, there is always one position parameter that gets hosed, and after a tool change the machine just pukes, and cannot be indexed because it’s not on the limit.

    Luckily this machine does not have Caron on it. I feel your pain, because I have lived thru those trying times.

    They are now looking to hire someone who can straighten this mess out. I do like the Multus, I love the OSP, but the Multus, in any size or configuration cannot live up to the hype.

    Maybe if the Macturn / Multus Asst. Manual had some consistent information and was not updated weekly and actually sent to the distributors more help could be given.

    I can name every Okuma multi machine in this five state area, they all are not running smooth. From the Macturn to Multus. Yes, some do get piled, and a little bump really throws them off. Some are lemons. And the dist, has to really reach to provide the customer with some piece of mind.

    Kind of makes you feel you will get more from a top tier builder. Anyone can reply to this with good or bad stories or comments from their Okuma dealings. And yes, there are some solid Okumas out their banging out parts, while awesome in its own right, the Multus is NOT a real performer. I am not saying brand B is any better. But I feel your pain and frustration, and I really do wish you the best. Good luck sir.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8
    Wow! And Okuma tells me I'm an unusual case. Maybe this is why they never offered to replace this machine if all or many Multus are not reliable.

    I also run the MA400HA, horizontal mill. Before that I had the MCV3016 vertical mill, both beautiful performers. Highly productive machines. I chose the Multus to run bar feed lights out production. My choice to stay with Okuma was solely based on my previous experience.

    Brand loyalty seems to have bitten me on the backside this time.

    Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with requesting a machine builder to take a lemon machine back?

    I requested via email to a top person at Okuma and my request was ignored. I didn't make this clear in the beginning but Okuma paid to have a service tech from the local service team stationed in my shop everyday, full time to work on this Multus. The guy worked here for months. They've been working on this thing almost daily since just before Thanksgiving '09. And he was here again just last week repairing the tool changer arm. It's like this machine is falling apart.

    I'd love to hear any suggestions or advice on getting my money back and making Okuma take this machine back.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8

    Larry Schwartz, CEO Okuma America

    Hey DIFF OVER,

    (by the way, I've seen diff over's way too often, great call-name!)

    Have you ever had dealings with Larry Schwartz?

    I called Larry to see if we could get some real help. First couple phone calls were promising.
    The last time I spoke to Larry Schwartz, CEO Okuma America, he told me "you need to lower your standards" There are witnesses to this quote on both sides of the phone conversation.

    I guess he was referring to accepting the Multus in it's current condition.

    Way to go Larry Schwartz! Only problem, my customers won't buy lowered standards.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    142
    Hi mstlouis,

    We've had similar probs with our B300.

    Hydraulic seals/ oil.
    Turret misalignment.
    ATC.
    Solenoids.
    CAS software.
    Bar feeder.
    Manuals.
    Coolant nozzles/ filters.

    But when it's running, it's great. Holds size all day, all night, don't have to chase anything. But I always arrive in the morning hoping it hasn't broken down!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1262
    Yes, add the LT300 disaster to the list...It's based on the MacTurn 250 and they both have had problems.

    Going on 3 years and nearly 9 months of downtime...

    1st machine has had ZB and WB linear axis replaced 2 times, 2nd machine had them replaced 1 time already while still under warranty. Turrets fail to index regularly, and software needs serious work to make the machine 1/2 as good as the U-100 was. ( my favorite is still the 5020L-G such a pleasure to work on...no interlock headaches, bulletproof software..ah, so nice.)

    I give them credit for finally admitting there's "several problems" and taking care of it (partially so far) with new cover designs, flushes, and linear rails, but this is not the old Okuma I know and love. We are still waiting for coolant tank issues to be resolves since their modifications. It's either overflowing and leaking onto the floor or sucking air since the filter screens and coolant tank are too small for the machine.

    Anyway...don't feel too bad, there are a lot of other builders with similar problems, but I'm surprised to see Okuma seems to be content with "we're not as bad as they are"

    We were successful in returning a machine that crashed itself due to a software issue. Seems it forgot what turret station it was on and decided to machine with the wrong tool and offset...bent the linear guides on X and Y when if found the chuck with the wrong toolholder. NOT GOOD! We had documentation warning them how the problem occurred and had already been asking for months that they fix it before something bad happens.

    Yup, Too late...


    Best of luck,

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8
    Holding size has never been a problem with Okuma that I've experienced.
    This is the #1 factor why I've been buying Okuma.

    Unfortunately this Multus B300 has an axis problem that Okuma America guys can not correct. Maybe it's only a software issue, but as far as Saturday at least one part file can no longer be made in this Multus.
    The part has features being cut in T100, T200, BA=45 and all those features no longer line up. The crazy thing is Okuma was just here 2/17 through 2/20 tearing the machine apart and putting it back together trying to fix this axis problem. Although they found Velocite Oil collecting where it shouldn't, and didn't know what to do about it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    202
    I have spoken with Larry several times. Had lunch with him at the PIT building. I have seen several customers send machines back. One customer had 1 E100 Captain. They got a P200 captain. No live tool, only 2 axis and LOTS of chatter. We sent so many techs in there. They sent it back and got all kinds of NASCAR tix and another Captain. The best part, they just got an NT. Still makes me pee myself.

    Not sure what to think anymore. All builders are so desperate to move machines. March is Japan year end. And yet the builders and dists are not really that interested in being partners with shops. I have no clue what it will take for things to get better. Good luck to all.

    One time i was talking with a service tech from a southern dealer. He made good points, and thoughts on why he felt that Okuma spent so much money on the THINC control, that iron got set aside. Over the last three years, the signs are there.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3

    Angry Okuma B400-W-----Undependable

    The Company I work for bought a Multus B400-W one month before I started working there. I went to training for the programming side of it and the operators got 2 weeks of training running it.
    Starting in Sept 09' we have had nothing but trouble with this machine, starting with Overheating servo's, Tool Changer jamming and throwing tools out of the arm, Constant Turret out of Alignment Problems "At least once a week" and using ADMAC never knowing what angle to compensate the 2nd spindle to time Front and Backsides of the part.
    Okuma from my past use to be a dependable machine, but NEVER AGAIN !!!
    We had our service rep out and said we were a unusual case.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    372
    You need to add a tool cleaning cycle to the toolchange code

    I use M341, IGF can also use M341

    with

    OM341
    VS88=VMTTL
    IF [VTTLN[1] EQ VS88]NLP1
    G20 HP=4
    TC=01
    M8
    M869
    M263
    M175
    G04 F4
    M868
    M262
    M174
    M9
    NLP1 M321
    RTS

    As for ADMAC and the the 2 spindles. This is a machine setup issue not an ADMAC issue. This is controlled by a PARAMETER

    1st-2nd spindle
    No2 2nd spindle zero offset
    Or use VSYOF=?????

    I have not seen the problem that you speak off

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    142
    I agree, the spindles are timed by a parameter.
    I can't recall where exactly it's buried.
    Our Multus arrived having the No1 chuck jaws aligned and pointing down(C0), which was nice as we mill between both clamped chucks a lot.
    Our Macturn arrived with each chuck (C0) at some random position. We aligned them ourselves.

    I'm starting to think there is some very basic communication problem at Okuma HQ.
    And probably a basic ATC design flaw as well.
    I know Okuma have stated (several years ago!)that using a cleaning routine(M341) as part of the tool change cycle is a fix.
    Why the hell do people(customers) in Australia, Europe, North America etc have to find this information through peer groups like CNCZone!?
    Why isn't this made clear and set up ready to use, if needed, by the distributor?
    It only reduces the frequency of dropped or jammed tools anyway.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC00234a.JPG  

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    372
    It comes down to machine setup, For some people the cycle time is everything for others machine running is everything.

    The M341 cleaning cycle was supplied by OCJ to the local distributer. Does your machine have this cleaning cycle?

    The toolchange arm spring problem can also be related to maintainance, How often do you clean the arm/Springs?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3
    How long have you worked for Okuma ?....budgieW

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    142
    For most people they want BOTH.
    Our machine uses the M341 NOW, after the problem has shown itself.
    I use it selectively on particular tools or material types, otherwise cycle times are too long.
    Cleaning springs on a machine a couple months old honestly did not occur to me at the time.
    We run an MA400H, six years old, and never had a problem with the ATC. Never had any preventative maintenance either.
    Buying the Multus was based on the reliability and solidity of that old MA.
    We have been less than impressed.
    Yes we bought a Macturn after the Multus, but it was the only hi-spec machine in Australia at the time and we could not wait for a Mazak or Mori Seiki or anyone else, to build/import one.
    It is a better machine than the Multus, because it is a (mostly) tried and true design.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    45
    FWIW, I recently spoke to a friend of mine who used to run a Multus and his threw its tools once too. We are in Canada and the frost heave from thawing in the spring causes our building foundations to move. His machine was cleaned up by re-levelling. I have a feeling I need to do the same with my Macturn. Spindle handoff is intermittent right now.

    Kev

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    10
    calgarykevvy you comment about intermittent spindle handover has me intrigued could you please elaborate on what's your problem.....

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    45
    Hi akl-kiwi!

    See this thread:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/okuma/...f_problem.html

    Thanks!

    Kev

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    59
    We have a Okuma tech here right now in fact. Let me fill you in on our mess. We got the B300W about a year and a half ago. Everything was great and everyone was happy for the first 3 months. We did a part with a lot of milling work on it and started noticing the depth of cut lines were getting bigger and more uneven. We did a quick check on the head and it was out of alignment. At this point the machine had never been crashed, scouts honor. Called tech to see what to do since this was the first problem we had and they were nice enough to send someone in. He aligned it all back up and we were back to running.

    A month later on the next order of that same job it happened again. They sent another tech to come in and for "some reason" he had the idea that maybe the alignment pins were never put in place on the B axis head. Took the spindle off and found....no pins. He put those in checked it all and we were back up.

    Back up until I needed through spindle coolant which for some reason start coming out all the seems on the spindle head and not the tool. Fixed that.

    Then I started having tapping issues and had to resort to thread mill.

    Two times we've had tools get stuck in the spindle and they have had to cut the tool off at the nose to get in and release it. Once because of some little clip broke and the second time because a chip got behind the tool somehow.

    Random alarms during an extended run with no program mods....reset....and back to running with no problems.

    No we have the guy here to find out when I program a straight line with X,C it comes out squiggly. He thought it was because I don't know how to set spindle centerline. So he set it...and still wrong.

    Everytime we have a problem they point the finger at us first and we have to fight to the death to prove I know how to mill a flat across the face of a part, lol.

    Needless to say Mazak and Mori or coming in this week to show us about the Integrex E and the NT series machines.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    372
    How large is the flat that you are milling, Basically the further you get away from the centreline the worse the result will be when milling with the C axis. if the flat is anywhere near the chuck OD then there is no hope. The Okuma fix is High Accuracy C axis

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    0
    Hello Guys,

    sorry to say but its not the same Okuma anymore. first i thoght that taiwan made series (like soarer, now its called genos) have problems based on assembly quality - hydraulic pipes not tightened enough, leaks, no pins inside turret, turret goes to the material with not clamped corectly, runout 0,1 on c axis brake disc, contaminations in hydraulic piping - very quick goes to damage solenoids.
    then we've found out a bigger turret problem - cannot set turret geometry correct. we've took it out of the machine, put to the measuring machine and guys said the tool holes (vdi) are out of position and inclined. deviations were 0,02 till 0,05. its not an asembly problem anymore.
    more, LB3000 ( why this happens?? )turret V12, tool station no x, You have two ool mounting positions - up and down, they are not parralel eachother. X means each single tool station on the turret.
    more, LT200, LB, 2SP - radial turrets - always problem with correct tool holder position... not from only one machine, or nto experienced operator. better way, experienced operators are saying if You want to mount the tool correct do it with a dial gauge.
    bout the multus related problems - You have enough of them already. and its not funny anymore ....

    Good Luck!

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