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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    430

    Brushless Motor for X2?

    Hey guys. A thread in the Sherline/Taig forum has got me thinking, can a brushless motor from the RC industry be used as a replacement for the stock X2 motor? It would (of course) have to be the large sized outrunner variety. I think I have found one for a reasonable price for experimentation.

    http://www.hobbypartz.com/mo1602brmo.html

    and this for an ESC:

    http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-pa...NTROLLERS.html

    These motors are insane. 2700W!! It would have to be cooled with either some kind of impeller mounted to the top or a little fan. This one has a 10mm shaft diameter, and is capable of handling 43V. 245 RPM/V so that would be about 10,500 rpm no load.

    Now, there are better ones made by AXI, but those are much more expensive (<$250)

    The only problem I can see is interfacing the ESC with Mach3 for speed control. You can use a servo tester for manual operation, but beyond that we would have to bribe some of the resident electronics wizards to build some kind of circuit to take either Mach's pwm output and convert it to 1-2 ms pulse or use Mach's step/dir.

    Another problem could be the power supply. 43v @ 60A .... ehhhh. yeah.

    this guy's site shows how large some of these motors are (hes using one to drive a bike):
    http://www.recumbents.com/WISIL/shumaker/default.htm
    Shaun
    my x2 conversion ------> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36403

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    521
    I don't believe they have endurance - their duty cycle is quite short at rated output. No 3 or 4hr machining cycles with these puppies!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    430
    true! but what if you made some kind of plate where water would flow through (or coolant) and mounted the base of the motor to that? i never really mill anything for 4 straight hours so it didnt cross my mind.
    Shaun
    my x2 conversion ------> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36403

  4. #4
    2700W!?
    The X2 doesn't need a 3.6 horsepower motor to spin an endmill, come on now.
    Lets use some common sense.
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    430
    well of course :P I would probably NOT use it at its full potential, just showing what you could do with it. If you do derate this motor, then maybe you wont need such a big PSU and crazy cooling methods.
    Shaun
    my x2 conversion ------> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36403

  6. #6
    So it would be like putting a V-12 in a Yugo but only use 4 spark plugs to detune it.
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    430
    ok how about we put a v-12 on an x2? :P
    Shaun
    my x2 conversion ------> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36403

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    446
    I think 2700w is abit unrealistic.
    I just put a 2.5 hp motor on my X1 .
    I have the maximum speed pot set to 1/4 on it . Its just to unrealistic. Im afraid something is going to break when it spins at full speed.
    They look small enough and light enough where ide consider one but ide be more realistic this time with a choice of a motor at around 1000w-1500w.
    This way you could find a decent priced power supply.
    This is only my thoughts and im not sure the out come there are people with better knowledge of the motors and such then me.
    I say you do what makes you happy though its your machine.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    430
    yeah it is a bit extreme there are smaller sized ones. they have one that is 1200w. that is still a huge step up from the stock x2 motor. see i usually drill deep holes with large size drills (1/2"- 3/4") and im always stalling the motor. i have the belt drive kit, so switching motors isnt a problem.
    Shaun
    my x2 conversion ------> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36403

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    446
    I say go for it but dont regret what you do and dont go to crazy there is a point where 3hp or 12hp I think wont make a differnce. Its like strapping the Applo13 on a car or a stealth jet what one will be faster?
    I dont own your mill so only you know that point.
    But most of all have fun and be safe in what ever you plan.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    155
    I have been doing some research on this as far as I can see its going to cost me about $600 + shipping to go brushless.

    This is a 750w motor that I liked. (to powerful for the X2 but I am making an external support brace for the column to keep it stable)
    http://www.anaheimautomation.com/pro...&tID=96&cID=22

    And a 750w AC controller (no power supply needed)
    http://www.anaheimautomation.com/pro...00&pt=t&cID=23

    But I may just go with a cheaper servo motor and use the KBIC controller I have to control it. Not sure how it will hold up to continuous load at 5-6 amps though. Any comments?

    http://cgi.ebay.ca/DC-Servo-Motor-90...item255af43807

    EK

    Quote Originally Posted by skmetal7 View Post
    yeah it is a bit extreme there are smaller sized ones. they have one that is 1200w. that is still a huge step up from the stock x2 motor. see i usually drill deep holes with large size drills (1/2"- 3/4") and im always stalling the motor. i have the belt drive kit, so switching motors isnt a problem.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063
    Quote Originally Posted by ellik View Post
    I have been doing some research on this as far as I can see its going to cost me about $600 + shipping to go brushless.

    This is a 750w motor that I liked. (to powerful for the X2 but I am making an external support brace for the column to keep it stable)
    http://www.anaheimautomation.com/pro...&tID=96&cID=22

    And a 750w AC controller (no power supply needed)
    http://www.anaheimautomation.com/pro...00&pt=t&cID=23

    But I may just go with a cheaper servo motor and use the KBIC controller I have to control it. Not sure how it will hold up to continuous load at 5-6 amps though. Any comments?

    http://cgi.ebay.ca/DC-Servo-Motor-90...item255af43807

    EK
    Most common servo motors are intended for intermittent duty, and will overheat if used continuously as spindle motors. Those little RC motors have relatively little torque, and get their high power through very high RPM, which means you'll need to reduce it a lot to get usable torque. And, they'll likely be screaming loud, and run very hot under load - they will be at best 80% efficient, and look at how little area there is for them to shed heat. As a spindle motor, they make no sense. For considerably less money you can buy a 3-phase AC motor and VFD, or a good PM DC motor, and either is likely to give a much better result. Now, you can put an encoder on any brushed DC motor, and drive it with a servo drive, but on an X2, I don't see any advantage to having a servo-drive spindle.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1237
    I was looking at smaller ones for PCB work. Make a motor mount with a 3/4" shank so it can be mounted right in the original spindle and leave the main motor turned off. If a boat motor is used, it'd be very easy to cool it as they come with water jackets.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063
    Here is a 3/4HP 3-Phase AC motor for all of $29.95. Add a $100 VFD (less if you find a used on on E-Bay), and you have a nice variable-speed spindle that will run off a single-phase 120V AC line. This motor could easily be run up to at least 90Hz, probably 120Hz, to increase the available RPM, allowing a 1:1 drive ratio for high RPM, and/or 2:1 for high torque, and would undoubtedly be far quieter than the stock universal motor.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    430
    I tried the vfd 3ph motor idea. just too large for the mill. i would use the existing pulleys for speed/ and torque.

    mrwild: i like the spindle in the spindle idea. uses some extra z axis, but you keep your x travel!
    Shaun
    my x2 conversion ------> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36403

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by HimyKabibble View Post
    Here is a 3/4HP 3-Phase AC motor for all of $29.95. Add a $100 VFD (less if you find a used on on E-Bay), and you have a nice variable-speed spindle that will run off a single-phase 120V AC line. This motor could easily be run up to at least 90Hz, probably 120Hz, to increase the available RPM, allowing a 1:1 drive ratio for high RPM, and/or 2:1 for high torque, and would undoubtedly be far quieter than the stock universal motor.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

    Where? I don't see a link.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063
    Quote Originally Posted by cjdavis618 View Post
    Where? I don't see a link.
    https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.a...tname=electric

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    430
    an extra 16 lbs? :/
    Shaun
    my x2 conversion ------> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36403

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by skmetal7 View Post
    ok how about we put a v-12 on an x2? :P
    Why not, this one will do.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VI5x...eature=iv#t=1m
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24216
    Ref this link: https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.a...tname=electric
    What you have to watch running a 2 pole motor at twice base speed is whether it exceeds the bearings rating and is well enough balanced.
    Often manufactures of vector rated motor do not recommend this high.
    I generally run 4 pole up to 120hz as I figure the manuf. probably make them to the same specs as a 2 pole, so ~3600 for a 4 pole is the same as base speed for a 2 pole, but 120hz on a 2 pole is almost 7000rpm!
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

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