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IndustryArena Forum > Hobby Projects > Hobby Discussion > responsibility in case of explosion
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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    43
    well in israel if some think isnt right as they say"you can go f**k your self"

    in court you need years to get some think out of the lawsuet so i think its better ill sell to THE Us UK EUROPE...

    any way here you need years to get some think out of a sue

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    1365
    "I do not accept any responsibility for injury or death" could help?

    Jon

  3. #23
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    May 2005
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    1810
    That should work!!

    Scott
    Consistency is a good thing....unless you're consistently an idiot.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    847
    Why not look at the companies that are already selling Hobby Turbine Kits/Plans and see what warnings or waivers (although it has been proven time and again that you cannot sign your rights away) they use?

    There are plenty of companies that sell this type of product, I am thinking it isn't as big of an issue as everyone is making it out to be...
    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)
    Check Out My Build-Log: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6452

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1810
    I am not busting your chops, JavaDog -but I disagree.

    Liability is a huge part of manufacturing a consumer product - I am certain you know this. It's a bit different when you are making parts for something that makes parts - the component screws up and you can point to the Engineer who drew the print or just make the guy another part. But if you are making something that has the potential to cause personal injury you had better have your act together.

    I would NOT minimize the importance of C.Y.A. All it takes is one idiot or one missed or misunderstood step and your business and life could be changed forever.

    That's a pretty big deal.

    Scott
    Consistency is a good thing....unless you're consistently an idiot.

  6. #26
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    Nov 2004
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    43
    mxtras what are you making?

  7. #27
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    May 2005
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    1810
    Wana bee -

    I make a product that allows you to haul a motorcycle without straps and without compressing the suspension. The liability is that if the product fails the bike(s) could come out of a pickup truck, for example. This happens with straps currently but for some reason nobody makes an issue of it but with a new product comes the inherent desire for someone to sue if the product fails - regardless of the circumstances...that's the American way.

    Scott
    Consistency is a good thing....unless you're consistently an idiot.

  8. #28
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    Nov 2004
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    43
    oh sounds good i have an Honda-CBR600F so i know what you mean

  9. #29
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    Nov 2004
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    43
    Well i decided that in first ill make the engine only blank ofcruse only parts that can come like this like the :
    Turbine wheel
    EGV blank

    and the other parts will be Complete.

    btw what do you think is the price that im going to need to set of a kit?
    i mean the Turbine whell blank EGV blank and the other parts reday to use?
    the engine will be about 16-18 lbs thrust

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    600
    "what do you think is the price that im going to need to set of a kit"
    Everyone has there own means of working out their (A) sales price structuring and (B) the manufactured cost of the pieces being sold (i.e. what it cost you to make)
    In your case I'd approach it in another way. You have competitors and your competitors have their price structures plus two other things you don't have.

    Trading history and credibility (i.e. others have previously bought the competitors' engines and I suppose they functioned well).

    In view of that I would attempt to sell at competitors' price minus 20% and see how it goes. Sell for any less than that and you'll be "shooting yourself in the foot" (doing harm to yourself) as we say in the English speaking world. Sell for any more and you probably won't have any customers unless it's a product the opposition don't have.

  11. #31
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    Nov 2004
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    21
    To Skippy

    Actually you can't do the "Mr. & Mrs." thing here in the U.S. either. There is a legal term, which indirectly goes to what is being suggested; the term is “Piercing the Corporate Veil”.

    What that simply means is you cannot set up a corporation, just to protect yourself from liability. You cannot protect your assets by assigning them to another with the sole purpose of protecting yourself from liability. If you were really faced by a lawsuit, under those circumstances, you might win the suit, but if you lost, your assets would still be in jeopardy; no matter whose name you had them in.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    1880
    I know this is an old thread so take it for what its worth.

    Actually you can't do the "Mr. & Mrs." thing here in the U.S. either. There is a legal term, which indirectly goes to what is being suggested; the term is “Piercing the Corporate Veil”.
    The only way you are supposed to be able to “Piercing the Corporate Veil” is to prove "gross Negligence". Now, every state has there own version of "gross Negligence", so picking the right state to incorporate in is a must (CA not so hot, but Nevada hasn't had a single "piercing" in something like 30-40years) That’s all I really know on the piercing subject.

    As for layering companies. Sure it’s not done as much as before, but there are different layering strategies that do work, and are designed to insulate you from asset seizer or losses from excessive lawsuits.
    thanks
    Michael T.
    "If you don't stand for something, chances are, you'll fall for anything!"

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3319
    The product liability issue is why the private/experimental aircraft market (oem and aftermarket) is SO costly and hard to do business in.

    A company I know of made parts. There were installed in a engine that was highly modified by the owner. When the engine failed (pure stooopid abuse), the family still sued the supplier of the parts (go after people with the deepest pockets in court).

    Even though the defendant ultimately won the case, it cost them a small fortune in legal defenses. The part which cost $125 each before the suit then cost well over $1000 each after as they raised price to recoup the loss.

    Our insurance simply will NOT cover us if we do aircraft work for just the reason cited above - the litigous society we live in combined with a general lack of personal responsiblity (IE: screw something up and get somebody else to clean up the mess afterwards).

    Then again you can use the strategy used by the silicone breast implant and the asbestos makers -

    properly and carefully incorporate yourself first,

    cleanly severe and keep your personal $$$'s separate from the corp,

    make it and

    when/if you do get sued, declare bankruptcy and stiff somebody else with the bill.

    Do you really want to go thru all that?????

  14. #34
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    Jan 2005
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    1880
    that sounds about right!
    thanks
    Michael T.
    "If you don't stand for something, chances are, you'll fall for anything!"

  15. #35
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    Nov 2004
    Posts
    21

    The Corporate Veil

    This does not have to do with gross negligence, but with any activity where you are attempting to shield yourself from sight by placing an entity between yourself (and your activities) from the scrutiny or responsibility.

    Also, you can be incorporated anywhere you want; you’ll still get hit. Why? Because you are participating in commerce; and if you so much as send an a letter to someone your case will not be in Carson City, but in the Federal Building, District 12, Golden Gate Ave, San Francisco, California. Or as that great American philosopher once said Th-th-that’s all Folks

  16. #36
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    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1880
    be that as it may lotus14, The nevada corporate viel has never been peirced, (that I know of). Your corporation my have to go to "the Federal Building, District 12, Golden Gate Ave, San Francisco, California" but not your personal assets.

    Unless of course you have information to the contrary, I would like to hear it!

    As I know quite a few wealthy people that stand by the Nevada corps. (and these arn't stupid people )
    thanks
    Michael T.
    "If you don't stand for something, chances are, you'll fall for anything!"

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3319
    Suggest that you investigate the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (AKA FRCP). I believe FRCP 6 deals with venue.

    Basically, unless the plaintiff can PROVE that you were actively conducting business in the defendant's Federal court jurisdiction (was state prior to edit) (this is gross over simplification) as in interstate commerce, they have to sue you in YOUR federal court district. :nono:

    If plaintiff has to come to you in your state to make sale, that doesn't constitute SUFFICIENT interstate commerce.
    Learned this the hard way in a fed suit I"m currently pursuing.

    After suing in our local Fed court (and getting tossed due to venue), we had to file in the defendant's jurisdiction (it is stated as such in the FRCP).

    Yes, it can be VERY hard to pierce the corporate shield.

    BTW, this is why many companies incorporate in Delaware even if they are headquartered anywhere else - VERY favorable corporate laws....

    Maybe Nevada is that way too but the biggies go to Delaware (ala GM, Dow, etc).

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4
    I think that whoever looses the case should be entitled to paying the lawyers fees for the other party... I think that might help fix a few things, I don't know how easy it is to setup a countersuit, but that might discourage the screwballs from starting these suits to begin with. I don't understand, maybe there's a crooked judge that all these people are going to... I would never fall for it if I were a judge. Hey, I dunno, maybe the judge can be sued...

  19. #39
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    2420
    Getting back to setting a price for the engine, maybe you should consider giving them away to cnczone members for free, I for one will gladly promise not to sue you if I blow myself up...

    16-18 lbs of thrust sounds pretty good, I was considering making a Shreckling version as a static engine only, and I believe the basic version puts out around 6 lbs thrust, if one worked I was going to build an A-10 tankbuster, slow flying and dual turbine engine, sweet.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    105
    lol... CNC wannabes got me laughing all night
    Live life like you never see another day

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