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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking > Moldmaking > share your experience with offshore molds, dies or machined parts
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Results 21 to 33 of 33
  1. #21
    Khalid,

    My apologies. I took your original post to be an unjustified projecting directed towards me which is why I defended my position so strongly.

    This is a very important issue to me. Anyone who knows me personally knows that what I'm trying to do goes beyond this community, however, I can not make the progress or provide the help which is needed for the manufacturing industries in the USA without the support of this community and others. Betraying this community is not my intention as it would completely undermine what I'm trying to do.

    Actually I believe that it is those in the USA who sit on the fence and do nothing that are betraying not only themselves but the entire manufacturing industry. We enjoy having freedom of speech in the USA so I think that everyone should get involved and voice their opinion on this matter.

    Most of us in the manufacturing industry made a good living until several years ago when cheap, low quality offshore manufacturing started to flood the US market. This has severely damaged the US economy as many companies started using these offshore services to save money. What many have discovered is that it actually cost them much more doing business offshore in the long run. However, there is still a mistaken belief that they must go offshore in order to compete in the market.

    I'm gathering the experiences of those who have used offshore manufacturing services and sharing them with OEM's and other customers so they get an education about what to really expect. It gives them a better picture about the true cost of doing business offshore. These are clearly posted online along with my 14 years of experiences dealing with offshore mold factories. 95% of the people I've talked to have had problems offshore which has also been my experience.

    Note that I have never taken an injection mold project offshore and never recommend to others to do so. The only reason I go there is because customers I know decided to have their mold/s made in China and had problems. Because of my experience and knowledge about injection molds they request that I go to China, assess the situation, determine where best to make the needed adjustments and/or repairs and get their mold/s out of the country asap!

    So far this year I've kept several projects from going offshore, one was a package of injection molds valued at almost $2,000,000. It won't be going to China as was originally intended. Instead a mold shop or several mold shops in the USA will be seeing this work. I'm sure they'll be grateful for my efforts and I will reap the satisfaction of knowing that I was able to do something for my fellow US citizens who work in the manufacturing industry.

    Unlike some who reside here in the USA I have no doubts about which country my loyalties belong to!

    Let's just agree that we had a slight misunderstanding and let this rest.

    Have a terrific day!
    Robert
    3D Accuracy

    P.S. I'm sorry to hear that China has already destroyed the industry in your country. This is truly unfortunate and should never be allowed to happen. Here in the USA that Anaconda will eventually have it's head cut off, I can guarantee it!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    68
    Robert, do you make molds yourself? If not, who do you recommend we use?

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    11
    I make a lot of tooling here in China, have done so for 12 plus years. You can find bad shops and good ones, we've found some good ones and stuck with them. They'll bend over backwards for us. The owner of the one shop personally delivers test shots to our door, sometimes after pulling an all nighter to help us hit a deadline. You have to do your homework but once you are hooked in there are some great benefits.

    Maurice

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    313
    Looks like you didn't fully explain Robert, I now understand and am happy to hear your reason for being over there. I too try to always buy USA made products in general "we only buy U.S.A. made machinery and tooling" if it's available and I think most people like myself and my business would be more then happy to spend the extra $1.00 or $2.00 for the USA made products, reallity is that most of USA's product price line isn't much higher then china anymore. For example drill bits, I can buy a deep hole drill bit for $2.25 and that's made in USA and last 10 or more times longer that is made to listed specs, or I could buy a piece of garbage made in china that varries from bit to bit in size for $2.00. And the same thing goes on with any cutters and most all products that are still made here. Good luck Robert and hope to see the effects from your work and everyone else's that is on this same page that were on.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by tenaja View Post
    Robert, do you make molds yourself? If not, who do you recommend we use?
    Hello tenaja,

    Thank you for your interest in my help.

    No, I don't make molds although I'm a third generation mold maker and have past experience making molds so I have a very good understanding of the process. For the last 30 years I've owned my own company providing Product Design, Injection Mold Design, Die Cast Mold Design and Blow Mold Design. If you need any design/engineering help I'd be pleased to be of service to you.

    I can definitely recommend a mold shop as I know many. Send me a PM (private message) or a direct e-mail at [email protected] with your company contact info and I will get in touch with you to discuss your needs.

    Thanks again and have a terrific day!
    Robert
    3D Accuracy

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mauriceduteau View Post
    I make a lot of tooling here in China, have done so for 12 plus years. You can find bad shops and good ones, we've found some good ones and stuck with them. They'll bend over backwards for us. The owner of the one shop personally delivers test shots to our door, sometimes after pulling an all nighter to help us hit a deadline. You have to do your homework but once you are hooked in there are some great benefits.

    Maurice
    Hello Maurice,

    I notice you're from China which begs me to ask a few questions before I post a reply.

    Is your company located in China or is it in the USA or another country?
    Have you ever had a mold made in the USA? How many?
    Do you have any personal mold making experience? Where, how much and what kinds of molds?
    Do you have any personal engineering experience? Where, how much and what kind?
    What's your job title?

    Let's start with that. Post a reply with your answers and I'll reply to your original post.

    Have a terrific day!
    Robert
    3D Accuracy

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by universalfab View Post
    Looks like you didn't fully explain Robert, I now understand and am happy to hear your reason for being over there. I too try to always buy USA made products in general "we only buy U.S.A. made machinery and tooling" if it's available and I think most people like myself and my business would be more then happy to spend the extra $1.00 or $2.00 for the USA made products, reallity is that most of USA's product price line isn't much higher then china anymore. For example drill bits, I can buy a deep hole drill bit for $2.25 and that's made in USA and last 10 or more times longer that is made to listed specs, or I could buy a piece of garbage made in china that varries from bit to bit in size for $2.00. And the same thing goes on with any cutters and most all products that are still made here. Good luck Robert and hope to see the effects from your work and everyone else's that is on this same page that were on.
    Hello universalfab,

    Ah, just a little misunderstanding among friends, happens to the best of us.

    Did you enjoy the links I sent you in the PM?

    Have a terrific day!
    Robert
    3D Accuracy

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    0

    Research, Monitoring and Balance are the Keys

    We have a moldmaking facility of 50+ years in the U.S and a moldmaking facility of 5-years in China. We also outsource a portion of our molds to SELECT shops in China as a relief valve for when we exceed our capacity to build tools.
    We began building tools in China at the INSISTENCE of our Fortune 500 customers - or we would no longer be a Supplier.
    We have successfully turned our increased competitiveness due to lower pricing on SOME tools into MORE work for our U.S. tool shop AND successfully build quality tools for both molding in China as well as export back to North America molding production facilities.
    You must do your research and properly monitor the off-shore builds, if you do this there is no reason that you can't build tools that are just as good as what we do here in the U.S. Some of the keys to doing this are too in depth for this forum but nonetheless with the proper balance there is no reason that you cannot be successful globally and more importantly keep your U.S. facilities growing and employing people with a solid future at good pay.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by 3D Accuracy View Post
    Hello Maurice,

    I notice you're from China which begs me to ask a few questions before I post a reply.

    Is your company located in China or is it in the USA or another country?
    Have you ever had a mold made in the USA? How many?
    Do you have any personal mold making experience? Where, how much and what kinds of molds?
    Do you have any personal engineering experience? Where, how much and what kind?
    What's your job title?

    Let's start with that. Post a reply with your answers and I'll reply to your original post.

    Have a terrific day!
    Robert
    3D Accuracy

    Hello Robert,
    I catch the drift of where your reply may be headed, I admit I am not the top man to go to for mold making questions when the difficult projects come up but I do have a fair bit of experience, its been 30 years now since I got of of engineering school (ugh). Thirteen of those years now spent in China as owner & operator of a contract manufacturing operation. OEM/ODM I guess they call it, some of the designs are ours, others are the client's designs. Our customers are mainly US based including some mold makers themselves that do a little outsourcing. I agree sending a project off to the opposite side of the planet is not for everyone but the companies that learn how to do it WELL are getting ahead. I see it up close, smaller companies and startups especially can stretch their dollars and do some good things.

    Maurice Duteau
    Owner/GM
    Welcome to Temco Controls Ltd.

  10. #30
    Hello clanfraser,

    Thank you for your input but I respectfully disagree with you. It is this type of short sighted rationalization by Fortune 500 companies in pursuit of profits that has put US manufacturing in the condition it’s currently in. You accepted their ultimatum so perhaps you’re busy because of it but it has put many other good mold shops out of business. I personally know of several and I know many others who can’t find enough work to maintain profitability.

    Your company is probably not saving as much money as you think you are if you’re only comparing the initial mold cost which most people do. By the time you add in all the “baby sitting” and other costs necessary to get a decent mold your savings, if any, are probably smaller than you think. It’s the total “Product Life Cycle Price” you need to look at when making a comparison. Check my website for 12 Important Factors to Consider When Purchasing a Mold: www.3d-accuracy.com/made_in_usa_vs_offshore_mold.html

    I’ve been going to China for 14 years and have stayed there for as long as 6 months at a time. I probably know more about Chinese business practices and culture than most. In all that time I have never seen a mold come out of China that was “as good as” what can be made here in the USA. I challenge anyone to send me drawings of molds designed and made in China that they think are really good molds. Let me know how many parts the mold has made, the cycle time, how much money you put into repairs and how much down time it’s caused. I guarantee you I’ll find problems with it that you probably aren’t even aware exist.

    Since the first of this year I’ve been asked to design six new molds for three different customers. These are all to replace brand new molds from China that don’t make decent parts in a respectable cycle time. Three require so much second op that the savings the customer thought he was going to get will soon be erased and it will start costing him money out of his pocket. Is doing business with China profitable? I think not.

    I have heard of one large molder who as of the first of the year is no longer willing to make parts from any mold that was made in China. I have not spoken to him personally to confirm this but it came from a reliable source. I heard they finally realized that the poor cycle times and constant repairs were affecting their bottom line adversely and they weren’t making a profit running Chinese molds. If everyone had the courage to refuse Fortune 500 companies, or any other customer for that matter, like this molder has the US manufacturing industries would be in much better shape and US consumers would have much better products to purchase because of it.

    If you want some insight into what China is really like I suggest you look at my blog: www.3d-accuracy.com/3d_accuracy_blog.html
    Read my recent articles “Is doing business with China a good idea?” and “CAD software piracy in China”. Start there and then tell me why you think doing business with China is the right thing to do.

    Have a terrific weekend!
    Robert
    3D Accuracy

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by mauriceduteau View Post
    Hello Robert,
    I catch the drift of where your reply may be headed, I admit I am not the top man to go to for mold making questions when the difficult projects come up but I do have a fair bit of experience, its been 30 years now since I got of of engineering school (ugh). Thirteen of those years now spent in China as owner & operator of a contract manufacturing operation. OEM/ODM I guess they call it, some of the designs are ours, others are the client's designs. Our customers are mainly US based including some mold makers themselves that do a little outsourcing. I agree sending a project off to the opposite side of the planet is not for everyone but the companies that learn how to do it WELL are getting ahead. I see it up close, smaller companies and startups especially can stretch their dollars and do some good things.

    Maurice Duteau
    Owner/GM
    Welcome to Temco Controls Ltd.
    Hello Maurice,

    Thanks for your reply.

    May I ask what you did prior to starting your company in China 13 years ago and where you did it?

    Have a terrific day!
    Robert
    3D Accuracy

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    11
    As I said I am not an expert with vast experience in the industry like yourself, but I can tell you good things are happening for my own operation and my clients' companies because of the competitive advantage.

  13. #33
    Hello Maurice:

    Thank you for your reply.

    Of course your company is doing well because if it’s competitive advantage. This is however at the expense of and adversely affecting manufacturing here in the USA and other countries.

    Let’s be honest about it, the only reason China has a competitive advantage is because the Chinese Communist government artificially keeps the RMB (Yuan) undervalued for its own benefit by not allowing it to float on the global market. This doesn’t make China a global partner, it makes China a global bully trying to take advantage of its global neighbors. They need the export business to finance their military weapons such as the new “Carrier Killer” long range missiles developed to sink US Aircraft Carriers with one blow.

    It has been estimated that the RMB is undervalued between 20% to 40%. If you had to raise your prices 30% tomorrow you’d lose your artificial advantage and probably most of your US customers. It’s not quality they’re after, it’s price, you’re cheap, you get the work.

    As far as your customers benefiting from this arrangement, I’d have to see the product and have a discussion with them to judge that. I’m sure you don’t feel secure enough or confident enough in their loyalty to allow that to happen.

    The bottom line is that the Chinese Communist government doesn’t play fair. You know it, I know it and so do many others here in the USA. The first step in gaining my respect would be to allow the RMB to float on the global market just like Japan, Korea, Australia, Canada and most countries in Europe do that want to have a “fair” trading relationship with the USA.

    Let me know what you’re doing to make that happen.

    Have a terrific day!
    Robert
    3D Accuracy

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