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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1041

    Tormach Probe - Pros & Cons ?

    I'm now getting into work that requires me to flip the part more than 2 times. One side of the part has to be dead on or the work is trashed. It's taken me almost 5 - 15 mins sometimes to set this up and most of the time it's a little off (0.01" - 0.02"), plus my vision in my left eye isn't so great and puts stress on my right.

    At the moment I'm using a little magnifying jeweler eye piece to set the X & Y. So looking over the Tormach site I see the probe and was curious what the users have to say about it.... ?


    Next I see they offer a replacement tip and wondering why. If the probe is suppose to stop the machine from moving once touched, how could you break a tip ?


    Last, I'm not seeing much info available on it and wanted to know how it works for setting up the X & Y coordinates. Say if I had a 4" x 4" x 1" height block, would I zero out the Z first then let the computer do the rest or am I having to jog it to each corner myself ?


    Or do you recommend a different piece of equipment that will help me ?




    .

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    147
    I reccomend buying a probe like this:
    http://wildhorse-innovations.com/ind...d&productId=80

    It is not as accurate but you are only in it for a couple of hundred. Then you can decide if you need more accuracy (I did not).
    The tool setting option on this one is not practical. With the tool table I don't think a tool setter is really useful anyway.

    I would think a rigid (relativly) probe that measures when an electrical connection is made would be good for 90% of the jobs out there. I havent found one yet though.

    You will love having a probe, the G68 command has changed my life!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1041
    WOW that's a steal !!! I've read a few people talk about this exact probe, and that it could void the Tormach warranty... Is this true ?




    "You will love having a probe, the G68 command has changed my life!"



    Sounds awesome ! Reading up a little bit on it's commands, I see G68, G69 and I also see G31. What's the difference between G31 and G68/G69 ?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    27
    Any comments regarding functionality and ease of use of the Wildhorse unit vs the Tormach probe and tool setter would be appreciated. The Wildhorse probe also functions as a tool setter which is nice as the Tormach is pretty pricy. As I understand it, the Tormach tool setter will populate the tool table on touch off? Same with the WH unit? Any issues with connecting the probe to the Tormach front panel DIN jacks?

    Mark

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    59
    Rather than use a probe, have you thought about using precision ground dowels to align your work after each operation? It has worked well for me.
    111011 101101 101001

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1602
    twocik, perhaps a USB microscope would be the ticket for doing your alignment.

    bob

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1041
    Dowel pins, great idea not sure how I could use them in this design. I guess I could pre drill the 15mm holes with a 1/4" hole for the first flip, but the second would be the problem. Not sure they make 15mm dowel pins, guess I could turn a few.



    As for the microscope, this has been on my list since they listed the diy, but I was trying to finish a few projects first. How accurate is this setup for alignment ?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063
    You might also look into a Haimer 3D Taster (Sensor). It's purely mechanical but senses in all 3 axes so you could use it for X-Y location as well as zeroing Z. To do the latter you'd have to fit it with one of the Tormach collars.

    They are available from US distributors with a 3/4" straight shank for around $350.

    Mike

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    147
    The design of the Wild Horse probe has you unscrew the probe "finger" (the long skinny part) as well as the part that goes up into the collet. Then you turn it over it and it becomes a tool setter. This approach tends to shift the probes's alignment. As a result you never end up using it for a toolsetter. It has three set screws that adjust where the probe finger or toolsetter plate is located. While this is a very straight foward process (the same at the tormach I think) it takes for ever to do! When I realized this I was very dissapointed at first. But after some use I have decided that I would not use any tool setter very much.
    I use a sliding paralell to set my Z and have found this to be very quick and accurate. Faster than getting a tool setter out and measuring electronically.
    If you find that you absolutely must have one I would just buy another WH probe and consider it a dedicated toolsetter (tormach's solution) you are still far ahead of the $800 or so for the "real" toolsetter from Tormach.

    If you bring up your Mach screen you will see a couple of pages refering to probing. One is XY probing and the last is Z probing. The XY page for the most part does what you would use G31 for except it is automatic in X and Y. It is assuming you have a vice or some other square object on the table. the beauty of this page is that you can just "eyeball" your vice or jig and clamp it down. Then on the XY page tell it to probe and the machine will probe two places along the X axis (you tell it how far apart) then measure one along the Y axis. At this point it will tell you where the corner of the vice is and what angle the vice is twisted. Then you go to your MDI and input:
    G68 R -1.3
    I just made up the -1.3, this number is the angle the probing screen will come up with. The whole cordinate system will now be shifted to match your vice or jig! You can tell you are in this shifted mode when the Dro numbers turn red.

    This particuar probe sends the exact opposite signal to the computer i.e. high instead of low. So if you hook it up right out of the box the computer will think the probe is touching something when it is not. This is fixed very easily in the XML you just reverse the probe sense. Going into the XML is what will void your warrenty. I was very concerend about this so I called Greg at Tormach he confirmed that it would void the warrenty but he also promised not to leave me out in the cold. Based on my previous experiences with Tormach and the general opinion everyone else has about them I decided to go for it and have not regretted it in the lesat. The xml change takes about 30 seconds to find and do. I promised not to tell how but it is very simple to do.

    I just can't say enough good things about having a probe it makes so much of a time difference and Is so accurate. Everybody needs one!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    154
    How difficult is it to connect the wildhorse probe to a tormach? Is it "plug and play"
    Christian

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by concombrefrais View Post
    How difficult is it to connect the wildhorse probe to a tormach? Is it "plug and play"
    Christian
    You have to solder a couple of wires but it is no big deal.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1332
    I am still on the fence as to if a probe would be a cost effective benefit for me.
    What I use now for tool height setting is to measure all of my TTS tools offline on a surface plate with height gage and then use Tool # 1 shown here to set a height datum. http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...uff/TooNo1.jpg This method is quick and can easily find the height datum of a roll pin or tooling ball. I believe a probe would require some type of algorithm programmed to find the maximum height datum of a roll pin or tooling ball.

    For center finding I use a center finding tool I built using an Interapid 312B-1V indicator (I really like Swiss Interapid test indicators and own two of them now) mounted on a Daedal 13mm positioner as shown here: http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...nterFinder.jpg This method is also quick and easy to find the center of a hole or cylinder. BTW I like this direct comparator method as opposed to the indirect Blake coaxial method much as a single indicator as a single indicator [i.e. Interapid 312B-1] comparator on a swing arm vs. those two-dial indicator contraptions for tramming .

    For edge finding I use a 3/8” Starrett edge finder mounted in a 3/8” TTS holder. This method of edge finding is quick and easy.
    My vise and other fixtures are “keyed” so as to be parallel to the precision ground center slot on the Tormach PCNC so I never have to tram my vise or fixtures when re-mounting on the mill table.

    Also the shuttle jog controller is also key to making these methods quick and easy.

    I am not sure what advantages for me a probe would offer. Perhaps someone that has been using the probe could show how the above tasks could be better and more easily done using the probe.

    Don

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Clement View Post
    I am still on the fence as to if a probe would be a cost effective benefit for me.

    Don
    It sounds like you have a very nice set up. A probe may not do much for you (it also may suprise you). If you do get one I would get a lower cost one first then if you need greater accuracy go with the ruby tiped probe.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1332
    Quote Originally Posted by davidperry3 View Post
    If you do get one I would get a lower cost one first then if you need greater accuracy go with the ruby tiped probe.
    I am not sure how a ruby tipped probe (vs. carbide tipped probe?) would give better accuracy. I have plans to make my own flexure mounted probe that would give extreme accuracy and absolute repeatability. The design is based on the way my excellent London Decca Phono cartridge works. See: http://soundapproach.com/london-decc...ge-p-1209.html
    BTW the London Decca Phono cartridge coupled with a 12AX7 tube preamp coaxes unbelievable sound out of a vinyl LP :-)

    Often analog beats A/D-D/A in quality perhaps because there is no "quantization noise". An analog in the mechanical world of "quantization noise" is the smoothness of a sliding or rolling bearing which depends on the smoothness (or roughness) of the surface contact in a sliding or rolling bearing. With a flexural bearing the movement is not dependent on the smoothness of a surface and has no "quantization noise" and also no stiction. MIT Professor of mechanical engineering Alexander Slocum described this process of internal solid movement of flexural bearings on P521 of "Precision Machine Design" ISBN 0872634922:
    'Sliding, rolling, and fluid film bearings all rely on some form of
    mechanical or fluid contact to maintain the distance between two objects while
    allowing for relative motion between them. Since no surface is perfect and no
    fluid system is free from dynamic or thermal effects, all these bearings have an
    inherent fundamental limit to their performance. Flexural bearings (also called
    flexure pivots), on the other hand, rely on the the stretching of atomic bonds
    during elastic motion to attain smooth motion. Since there are millions of
    planes of atoms in a typical flexural bearing, an averaging effect is produced
    that allows flexural bearings to achieve atomically smooth motion. For example,
    flexural bearings allow the tip of a scanning tunneling microscope to scan the
    surface of a sample with subatomic resolution. See for example, G. Binning and
    H. Rohrer, "Scanning Electron Microscopy." Helv. Phys Acta. Vol. 55, 1982, pp.
    726-735." '

    Don

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    59
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    You might also look into a Haimer 3D Taster (Sensor). It's purely mechanical but senses in all 3 axes so you could use it for X-Y location as well as zeroing Z. To do the latter you'd have to fit it with one of the Tormach collars.

    They are available from US distributors with a 3/4" straight shank for around $350.

    Mike
    I ordered a Haimer and received it today. It may not work for 3D cloud modeling but it's a fantastic peice of equipment. I only wish I'd bought one when I was first starting out. I've got so many bent electronic edge finders it's not even funny. They aren't too forgiving if you're dyslexic.
    111011 101101 101001

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    20

    Wildhorse Probe hookup to PCNC770

    I just received and hooked up the Wildhorse probe to my Tormach PCNC770.
    Here are some of the details:
    You need to change the connector from the 1/8" stereo mini-plug to a 5-pin DIN plug. Beware that the pin numbering on these DIN plugs is a little odd (sequence is Pin 1,4,2,5,3 - as you look from the rear - one of these pins carries +12v so check twice !). A wiring diagram is in the Tormach manual (figure 8.22).

    The wire to the "Tip" of the WH probe goes to Pin 4, and the wire from the "Middle ring" goes to Pin 5. The LED will work correctly when you wire it this way - If you wire it backwards, the probe will still work without the LED.

    As has been written before - you need to tell Mach3 to use opposite logic. Without addressing any of the warranty issues, the directions for doing this are described in the Tormach PCNC770 manual (section 9.5.11) and are fairly easy to do.

    My impressions: This is a pretty nice probe for the money. The key is alignment which can be tricky but after a little practice is not too bad - I was able to get it to align within .0005 on the indicator.

    I plan to mount it in a setscrew R8 collet - so that it will always be inserted the same way and orientation into the spindle (I marked the pulley so it won't go in 180 degrees out). I also need to test "edge finding" accuracy against my conventional Starrett edge finder before trusting it completely...

    It definitely looks like it will be fantastic for finding edges and the middle of a hole. I just started playing with "Bed O nails" probing - it may work well for metal objects - but my testing on wood shows that it will "leave a mark" on soft materials.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    27
    Looks like the PCNCConfig program is a little different on the 770 vs the 1100. Maybe the next software release for the PCNC 1100 will have the same probe logic selection option like the 770. After all, if they feel safe enough to allow this change on the 770, why not the 1100?

    Mark

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    34
    The question of warranty has been answered in Federal Law and several court cases over the past years. A manufacturer cannot base continuation of a warranty on arbitrary actions. They must show that the actions were the actual cause, or a major contributing cause, to the failure in question.

    This was first tested when automobile manufacturers tried to tie warranty conditions to a certain brand of replacement parts (usually their own brand). It has since become a part of commercial law in general.

    So if you make a change to the probe configuration portion of the XML file and your controller goes belly up, Tormach must show a direct relationship of the change you made and the failure of the controller in order to weasel out of the warranty.

    Tormach's argument in support of their warranty terms is probably something to the effect that customer changes to the XML file MIGHT configure the machine in such a way that the machine would "crash" and cause damage. This is true. If such a change to the XML file were made and it caused damage to the machine, then the customer, not Tormach, is on the hook for the damage. But, under the law, the simple act of changing the XML file cannot be a basis for a blanket voiding of the warranty.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidperry3 View Post
    Going into the XML is what will void your warrenty. I was very concerend about this so I called Greg at Tormach he confirmed that it would void the warrenty but he also promised not to leave me out in the cold.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1041
    So no one here is using the Tormach probe, just the wildhorse ? Don't get me wrong the price is a very good on the one you've shown me, but how does this compare to the Tormach's probe as far as accuracy, structure, etc... ?

    Does the Wildhorse have the same resolution as the Tormach Probe or are they the same ?


    Sorry for all of the questions I'm just trying to figure out why one is almost 10x the price as the other.


    Going to hit the fire button here tomorrow, so if someone could please come thru and let me know your honest opinion on the Tormach's Probe.

    Guys again thanks for help

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063
    Try the Yahoo Tormach group - maybe somethere that owns one will speak up.

    Mike

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