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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Benchtop Machines > High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical
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  1. #61
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    Jul 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by praetor View Post
    would it be ok if you shred the motor portion of your high speed spindle?
    I dont understand what you mean - "shred the motor portion..." - my English is very DIY ;-)
    Herbert

  2. #62
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    Mar 2005
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    160

    Misspeling

    I want to apologize for my misspelling I meant "share", can you share the information of your motor build. as i said i have the ER 16 extension and would like to adapt the same concept you used with your spindle. I would like to connect my spindle build to a motor, too.

  3. #63
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    See the upper end of spindle, aluminium "fixator", When shaft is ended then emty "cup" - fill silicon compound in to "cup" - oiled pinion on to motor shaft, put it together, motor need to be accurete centered inside of housing. Next morning take it apart, cut away excessive silicone - now you have flexible high speed coupling. Better when less number and bigger tooths, or you can machine yourself like pinion or stern. It is laughable simple but this is the best I have tryed, works great, no stupid noises, no vibration.
    Of course it is better to make any special stopgap for molding - it need to be well centered. My motor is fixed inside the housing beween rubber strips (or o-rings when water cooled) - I like silent machines. When you are building not so high speed spindle, but will need/use more torque - then may be you need to use bit stronger compound but silicon or rubber anyway. At that you "cup" will be bigger than I have, you can use more serious Stern (pinion).
    Herbert

  4. #64
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    Jul 2005
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    Hereby some more detailed pictures for better understanding the upper side.
    On the the shank you can see perimetric V-groove -> "fixator" has three M3 sharp-ended setting-screws (rad.120*). Also "fixator" has three axial screws (ax.120*) - M3 flat-end setting screws -> through steel dish -> through inner-ring of upper bearing -> through long sleeve on the shaft - gives preload to bottom bearing system. Upper bearing placed inside of slide and preloaded by spring.
    Also I hope that my flex high speed coupling is bit more understandable now.
    Regards,
    Herbert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ER11-Spindel_45detail2.jpg   ER11-Spindel_45detail-Model.jpg   ER11-Spindel_45-Model.jpg  

  5. #65
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    Jul 2005
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    302
    Motor housing, made from aluminium, is near ready too. Unfortunately up till today not received ER-11 collet extension I ordered three weeks ago. I dont want to take apart my last spindle to go on with new one. What I can do? Nothing more than to wait. Just in case I will order one more extension, fom some onother place. Motor I will use : Two pole brushless ironless, slotless (airgap windings) no cogging ... Kv: 1800RPM/V , Weight: 449g
    Shaft: 6mm , Size: 63x45mm, max Voltage: 36v ,Highest rated power: 2800W ;-) You do not need to be wonder about this huge power - this is maximum, this is RC-stuff - good stuff ;-)
    I tryed with 24V - no load current was 4A when 44.000 RPM - so - not more than 10A (240W) will be seen when normal milling with up to 6mm endmills. Vibration is very low as well as noise. Because high speed and because not the best available materials (most expensive) have been used - it comes bit too hot - because I decided to go to water cooled - coolant liquid will go through spindle before goes to normal mill cooling. Motor I found, bought and already received was astonishingly cheap - $37.00 + shipping. Normally just only rotor costs at least two-three times more. Because I know a thing or two about motors I can detect that this is copy or replication of Lehner wheres 22** serie costs EUR 270...300... Welcome to Asia ;-)
    Regards,
    Herbert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ER11-Spindel_M45WC.jpg  

  6. #66
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    Jul 2005
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    Flange is bolted to housing, machined more close to right shape, added teflon seal (not pressed to right depth jet), fits exact with inner ring of R1212, exact how its was done with my last spindle, works at least 12 hours every day. Im thinking about ... perhaps will use a bit more massiv inner ring like from R8 ZZ - this part of seal supports lower bearings as well. Will see. I have the time inasmuch as ER11 1/2" extension theretofore not received ... and no reply to my questions from seller ...
    Next Im starting with tests of my water cooled system. I hope that these o-rings seals will keep coolant away from unwanted places, I hope it will be hermetic and works llike vibration (400hz ...750hz) damper as well.
    Herbert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0366.JPG  

  7. #67
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    Mar 2005
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    160

    Much appreciated

    Thank you very much Herbertkabi, I appreciate you sharing this information with me and wil use much of your concept on my spindle and will also share pics and progress on my ER 16 high speed spindle build.

    Again, Thank you.

  8. #68
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    Jul 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by praetor View Post
    Again, Thank you.
    hi praetor, what kind of bearings you planned? I hope you will find good ones.
    I have built by another schemes too but this is the best at least for me. As I told - works minimum 12 hours every day - in one year I have took it apart only one time - to be sure everything OK or not and add a bit grease (I use ISOFLEX NBU 15) and the only thing what was needed to replace bit later was motor bearings - I was lazy to replace these bearings direct when bought this used Kontronik Tango from ebay.
    Many peoples are thinking that high speed spindles are something about mystic - yes, for me also if it need to be able for automatic tool change - but just high speed spindle - it is simpe thing. And Im far from it to be named as master of machinings, Im very modest machinist ;-)
    Regards,
    Herbert

  9. #69
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    Mar 2005
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    160

    Spindle

    what size bearings do you suggest? Your the designer and builder so I would rather follow your system. I would need the bearing size/dimensions. Also, how was the cone put on? is it a tight fit on the ER tool? or is it screwed in somehow?

    Thanks.

  10. #70
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    Jul 2005
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    Bearings for really good high speed spindle I prefer only angular contact Super Precision Bearings, expensive but you can find from ebay too. Searched ´super precision bearings` you will find different brand names mostly from ebay Shops... not cheap but then searhed these brands and names you can find much more cheaper ...
    ***I dont know shank diameter of your ER16 extension*** diam. 3/4" or 20mm? ...
    Or this: ER16 1/2" SS COLLET EXTENSION W/WRENCH ebay 160201209876?
    Cone is hot-pressed, or you can make just tight fit and use Loctite - I have used both ways. My cone placed on the place where normally flat sides for key, instead of this key I use clamp you can see on my first photos. It saves room (distance between collet and first bearing) and yhis cone protects bearing seal, gives more rigidity as well as work as gyro - high speed spinning mass(wheel). When its pressed (or fixed otherwise) on to the shaft then it need to be on time more very precisely machined by all shapes and sides ( of corse ONLY shaft between two cones on the lathe or collet and cone ...) I use stainless steel and very sharp special inserts - if just steel then I think you have to go to grinding for finishing. All parts need to be done very-very precisely, you have to be very patient. Sorry, if speaking too much - I have no idea how expierenced you are - there is no place for compromise by tolerances. Even long sleeve on the shaft between bottom and upper side bearings need to fits and slide exact and outer side need to be over-machined on the shaft - its made from aliminium, but even smallest dismissive with rotating parts will cause unvanted vibrations. All what are on the shaft I firstly make workpiece with acurate face side and needed precision bore, then finishing on the shaft (shaft only between cones or using collet ... I really hope that nobody will try just with Chuck ;-)
    Regards,
    Herbert

  11. #71
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    Mar 2005
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    to your specifications

    Thanks again herbertkabi for your info, I will stay with your specification and any info you would like to impart I will accept you are not tlaking too much but you are helping a lot.
    I went to vocational high school to become machinist, when I graduate there was no jobs availabel at the time. My country (USA) was going through a recession so I work many jobs machine shops did not want high school graduate they wanted experience. I work many jobs no machine shop jobs but I do machining at home for hobby and a little for private work. I can work good tolerances (.001-.0003) But i practice to make better.

  12. #72
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    Jul 2005
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    Finally ER11 extension shaft received today afternoon. Oh dear - ordered May 22, received Jun 26... used expensive enough courier service for shipping from US ... I have been in troubles with Fedex before too. But OK - now I have all parts I need, cone is already pressed on to the shaft and remachined by all surfaces. End of this week I will mill with new high speed spindle. Water cooled because I like silence when working in my small and modest workshop.
    Regards,
    Herbert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0386.JPG   IMG_0391.JPG  

  13. #73
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    Jul 2005
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    Spindle is ready now. It is rigid and runs really smooth. Now I have to to mold silicon coupling, make some finishings of motor housing on the lathe ... then add cooling nipples, install the motor .... and thats all. Motor I will use not exact this selfmade one on the photo - I built another one too, looks near the same but bit shorter, it runs on my test stand right now: 24V, 2,8A -> 25kRPM, 6A -> 50kRPM, 8A 75kRPM ... seems I will not need more than 50KRPM, commonly 25k....35k, up to 50k it runs quiet because no ululate of fan. German GRW 1/2/001 AC1 TA super precision angular contact bearings have 86.000 RPM of Limiting Speed when oil and 76.000 when grease.
    I hope you understand how bearings preloaded - spring gives preload between upper and lower bearings, three axial screws on the end-cup (coupling) controls preload of bottom bearing pair BACK to BACK. Cup itself is(coupling) fixed to groove on the shaft with three radial screws.
    "Back to Back" pair - there one very thin precision fastener I added beween outer rings ...
    Yours in Service,
    Have a nice time,
    Herbert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0393.JPG   IMG_0384.jpg   IMG_0396.JPG   IMG_0397.JPG  

    IMG_0394.JPG  

  14. #74
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    Aug 2004
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    2849
    Herbert, nice work. Any information on where I can acquire one of those motors. Oh, almost forgot and the motor driver.
    Thanks, Paul

  15. #75
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    Jul 2005
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    RC stuff - I have told about several times. You need to know RPM/V (kv).
    For example my previous spindle uses Kontronik Tango 45-13, (kv 1320 rpm/1v by data), using 24V it makes in fact nice 33k rpm, Controller also rc stuff, as well as servo tester (pwm gen.). RC motors/controllers are very powerful - 250W ....2500W - current more than 100A - you will use only fractional part of, when I mill with full speed using 3mm endmill then Ampermeter shows only few Amps , when 6mm endmill and heavy milling - even then visible current (you dont see pulses :-) never more than 5...7 A max (Kontronik Tango). You have to think about rotor diameter (and lenght) when choise about.
    There are smart people - rc controllers have governor mode (heli mode) - its possible to set up for constant speed , irrespective of (or pending about) milling load - then amp.meter will show bit wide span of current change.
    Some China made motors are also very good (when water cooling (I can let you know from where I bought)). I used only their Rotor because full motor bought cheaper than replacement rotor costs from Lehner, Hacker .... You can buy from eBay. Motor bearings I replace for best of hybrid ceramic ones even when brand new motor.
    Kontronik, Lehner ... are slottless motors - no cogging, Plettenberg, Neu ... are slotted motors - you feel cogging when you turn rotor by hand. These two mentioned are also very-very good motors, especially Plettenberg has well balanced multipole rotor.
    Depend about Voltage you use - always first af all you look voltage/rpm Kv of motor. Kv multiply V = no-load RPM = appr max mill speed.
    Regards,
    Herbert

  16. #76
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    Jul 2005
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    OK - although no palpable interest about my spindle - it works well. Max RPM near 50k, but too noisy then, I use it up to 37kRPM, most of all 25...35 kRPM.
    Up to 10...15 kRPM its even too silent - it runs or not - need to beware with fingers. Perhaps I will take it apart few times more - some rotating parts I need to balance more precise. Universal cooling system works great for motor as well as for milling. On the pictures RPM is not high, ca 11.000, I have removed my special screen (used T-shirt material ;-) and I dont want to blemish my camera.
    Regards,
    Herbert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0399.jpg   IMG_0400.JPG   IMG_0401.JPG   IMG_0402.JPG  


  17. #77
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    61
    Hi Herbert
    I applaud your work. I have been trying to build a high speed brushless spindle for quite a while and have been unable to find a suitable design. Your design is great. Can you recommend a brushless motor to use for this design?

    Thanks,

    Jayson.
    Quick... catch all the smoke so I can stuff it back in.

  18. #78
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    Jul 2005
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    302
    Depend what you want to cut, what size endmills, what you planned for shaft .... Many brushless motors are good. Most important is KV ( RPM per 1V). For example I use 24V - then for ca 48.000 RPM KV must be 2000. When you use 12v then KV must to be twice higher - 4000 to get 48k RPM of end speed. And current will be twice higher too then twice lower voltage. You must to know how you want it cooled - air or water. Not all motors are easy to make water cooled. Second thing you need to know is Rotor diameter and lenght - torque.
    Motors you can buy from eBay when cheap or direct from Shops - mostly expensive, but from China you can buy very cheap brushless motors good for water cooled spindles, look at hobbycity.com. I have bought several types and cant tell much bad words about - for those money these are super! (of course bearings need to be replaced for the best ones - is the first thing you do). My first high speed spindle motor I bought from US ebay - Lehner 1930/8 - 50.000 rpm. Kontronik inner-runners are good too, especially special designed Kontronik Tango - very good motor up to 30k...33k (I used 45-13).
    Plettenberg HP300 seies - VERY GOOD for high torque up to ca 25k RPM (NEU Motor near the same). Plettenberg HP370 series are good for large spindles up to 20...25K. Lehner 22** series are good ( up to 50K).... very many motors ...
    End power of these motors are in kilowatts but you do not need to think about - mostly when used as spindle motor the current will be only few ampers up to 10 or 15 when some kind of heavy cut - but you have large reserve!
    Not all spindles I have built have separate motor (with coupling) - some motors I have installed direct on to spindle shaft. Then a bit more works need to be done, sometimes rebuilding of all motor or even all motor self built. One thing is clear for me - it is very hard to get (selfmade)rotor well balanced when RPM is higher than 20k.
    Next Spindle I started will be big one - will use Erickson DA-100 straight shank collet chuck, motor is fully selfmade 12 pole rotor (d-53mm x 30mm) 27 slots stator made from SMC, this motor is 100% my design - like the same does not exist.
    Speed I will use is not high - up to 10.000 max - but smooth run even lowest speed and huge torque - it will be an special spindle for additional axis of my milling machine ... something like lathe spindle ;-)
    Cheers,
    Herbert

  19. #79
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    Mar 2005
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    160

    Very nice spindle!

    That's a very impressive spindle Herbertkabi, this is the type of spindle I want to build for myself...unless of course you want to sell that one you have....
    So you use it for RC stuff, pretty neat! Maybe i should try that sometime.
    "Are you gonna eat that?"

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by praetor View Post
    That's a very impressive spindle Herbertkabi, this is the type of spindle I want to build for myself...unless of course you want to sell that one you have....
    So you use it for RC stuff, pretty neat! Maybe i should try that sometime.
    Have told before - I do not spindles for sale, only closest friends have got it like gift. I can not give any warranty when its made by me - Im very modest machinist - I can see very experienced/practiced/versed members of this forum who can do much more better ones.
    I have got some privat messages where wonder why I spend a lot of money for very expensive super precision bearings, collet chuck ... motor, driver ... - Oh dear! - Why you build your cnc mill yourself ? - I can ask as well. For me its not about the money, I can buy what ever I want, no problem ... but I like to do myself - even my house I built myself, more than 20 years ago I built 40kg Induction Furnace (for Bronze) - when I started I had no idea how it works, there was no Internet at this time from where to study... but I did it successfully.
    I do show my High Speed Spindle just as respect this public, I hope that when I have gave something, some ideas from myself - I can ask some helps or advices from anothers. To be honest - I need much more advices than I can give myself to anothers.
    Regards,
    Herbert

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