[Rockn-Roll]

Hi...I've put in about 10 hours reading through these forums...haven't learned what I need yet.
I'm looking for a new general purpose CNC machine tool for around $10,000USD.

Minimum Requirements:
Throat: 5"
3 Axis movement with .001" increment.
Sufficient power to make .010" cuts from 200-250 MPa Yield Strength steel using 220V Single Phase...minimum 2HP...it doesn't need to be speedy.

Just form in your mind a machine that can make a cut on any area of one face of a 5"x5"x5" cube with precision of .001"...I'm sure there's a machine out there that can do it...I'm just hoping to get some more options before I start looking for demonstrations of the machines.

I would prefer USA made so the user manual is easy to understand and I can understand customer support in every division i.e. Marketing, Sales, Technical Support, Accounting, etc. and to reduce damage from shipping since I'm in the USA. A good quality machine can be built in any country, but I would have the best understanding from user manuals and customer support from humans and user manuals made in the USA.

[mactec54]

Rockn-Roll
Question 1) My college shop instructor said a Lathe can do anything a Mill can

I would not trust your instructor, A $250,000 (Plus) dollar, 5/6 axes can do both, but would have to be a very large machine to do a engine block, a regular standard lathe can not do what you can do on a regular mill

You can get new front rotors for $300 for your car, & you may be able to find a better price than this

If you want to machine the engine your self, you need a special machine to do the V8 engine block, it could be done on a mill with special fixtures, to hold the block, at the right angle, but would not be worth the trouble, A good engine builder can put it right, in there special machines they have for doing this work

Other Zone users can give advice on a machine, but don't even look at the 3 in 1 type machines

[underthetire]

Your instructor obviously does no know machining. Anything big enough to even fit a V8 block in to on a CNC is going to be ~75K for a cheap one. A lathe, especially a CNC, will be hard pressed to mill anything other than a slot. Multifunction (live tool lathes) with Y axis are going to start at around 125K, and thats going to be about a 6 -8 inch machine. Used mills can be had for your price range, but remember, your going to need three phase power for almost anything.

[Rockn-Roll]

Hmm...this thread is already off track...I'll edit my original post.

[DareBee]

Your biggest problem - you have bad luck.
All the shops you have used are incompetent Jackasses.

You can NOT get a CNC machine that will do an engine block for likely less than $75,000, and it will be 20+ years old.
You can NOT get an American made CNC any cheaper than a Haas (Haas may very well be the only full US machine left).

A Syil X7 is likely the closest you will get to your specs and it is still a long way off.

[mactec54]

Rockn-Roll

That was a big change, once you write it, a lot of people are going to see it as soon as you post, Going from a V8 to a Lawn mower size engine 5x5x5, what changed

Now that you have changed things, there are many small machines that will do what you want, I would look at the How-Mau machine, there biggest cnc would be the best of there machines to get for the money you want to spend, & they are in CA Paseo Santa Cruz

[DareBee]

I agree.
If you didn't know the original post, it makes my previous post look retarded.

except for this part \/ (even though there is no context as to why I said it )

Your biggest problem - you have bad luck.
All the shops you have used are incompetent Jackasses.

[Rockn-Roll]

I agree.
If you didn't know the original post, it makes my previous post look retarded.

except for this part \/ (even though there is no context as to why I said it )

Your biggest problem - you have bad luck.
All the shops you have used are incompetent Jackasses.

Sorry...I'm a total noob and will probably say a lot of stupid things...please be patient. I've learned enough that I will most likely support this forum, so I'm not going anywhere...after obtaining a machine tool I will most likely need some assistance from the more experienced machinists. But, yes...I think the Sacramento CA area has lost their minds and taken the economic situation too literal and are paying just above minimum wage for crucial labor...I'm seeing a lot more vehicles breaking down on the streets. I'm actually getting out of here the first chance I get. My uncle is a 30 year veteran commercial welder and I'll probably be setting up the machine tool at his shop.

Rockn-Roll

That was a big change, once you write it, a lot of people are going to see it as soon as you post, Going from a V8 to a Lawn mower size engine 5x5x5, what changed

Now that you have changed things, there are many small machines that will do what you want, I would look at the How-Mau machine, there biggest cnc would be the best of there machines to get for the money you want to spend, & they are in CA Paseo Santa Cruz

OK...thanks. I did a web search for How-Mau Machine Tools and am currently looking at a web domain name of Atron.com.tw which appears to be the domain of the How-Mau CNC Machinery company in Taipei i.e. Taiwan. If their Company name is How-Mau then why isn't their Domain name How-Mau.com? I checked with Register.com and it's available...and for $15/month they can have the domain along with email addresses...it looks like they are all using HotMail accounts. Sorry, I'm just making an observation that the How-Mau company is 10 years behind in products and services which only cost $15/month. In my personal and very subjective opinion I suspect their products and services which cost $5,000 are also behind the times. It looks like there is a subforum here for How-Mau machinery...if I can't find anything closer to home then I'll definitely drop in there and see what they have to offer...thanks.

[underthetire]

Don't know what jobs you've been looking at in Sac, but I know several shops in Elk Grove/ Sac area that pay VERY well. And can't get skilled people.

[mactec54]

Rockn-Roll

Sorry,just Google HM CNC Systems, this is How-Mau USA

HMCNC

[Rockn-Roll]

Sorry,just Google HM CNC Systems, this is How-Mau USA HMCNC

Ah...OK...that's more like it. They are in Fremont actually...I lived there for about a year in 1999...about a 50 minute drive from where I am. Thanks, I'll give them a call and see if they can demo some of their machines.

Don't know what jobs you've been looking at in Sac, but I know several shops in Elk Grove/ Sac area that pay VERY well. And can't get skilled people.

I don't know directly because I haven't applied for a job as a mechanic for a couple of decades, but just a few years ago I met a high school student who was hired as a shop assistant for just a little above minimum wage and was asked to perform tasks that require a journeyman mechanic...telling them that it's training. I would be completely surprised if you have worked in the Sacramento area and have not encountered businesses which take advantage of individuals who are inexperienced or desperate for a job. After these workers complete their training and start asking for a raise they are fired and the shop hires another "trainee". Heck...I just got through training my replacements for a job I worked for over 2 years...because I got tired of doing 3x the work that my supervisor was doing and getting paid and treated like I was something they needed to sweep under the rug if someone important wanted to meet the team. During my stay here that's the rule and not the exception...the exception is finding a business that wants to build their business by holding onto workers that can improve it...not fire them and hire workers that will maintain the poor quality and lack of progress that has kept the business from growing for the past 10 years.

[draughted]

sounds like you need something like a tormach.

[Rockn-Roll]

sounds like you need something like a tormach.

If you mean PCNC 1100 or PCNC 770 then I'm looking at the specs right now. The 770 has a 1HP spindle motor and the 1100 has a 1.5HP spindle motor.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm a noob so it's very possible), but wouldn't anything less than 2HP be insufficient for milling 250MPa Yield Strength steel? Wouldn't I get some bucking at low speed from the tool speed variance as each cut is made? At higher tool speeds wouldn't this result in significant vibrations? With my budget and purpose I don't think I should consider anything less than 2HP...don't you agree?

[Algirdas]

Your capability demand is too high with that budget, in my opinion. People do the job with Okuma. Running 5 axis Okuma for that money even 14 years old is impossible to find. And You want it to run from single phase!

[Rockn-Roll]

Your capability demand is too high with that budget, in my opinion. People do the job with Okuma. Running 5 axis Okuma for that money even 14 years old is impossible to find. And You want it to run from single phase!

I don't know anything about Okuma...that's why I'm here asking for machine tool advice. Thanks...I'm visiting the Okuma.com web site right now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these look like production machines...designed to turn a part over as quick as possible...something that I don't need right now...I need something to prototype and test my designs.

As for your electical comment: My air compressor is running on 220V single phase and it's rated at 5HP. I just measured the current at 31.4 Amps @ 220 Volt. 220 Volts * 31.4 Amps = 6900 Watts = 9.25 HP. This means that the electric motor which runs my air compressor is about 5/9.25 = 54% efficient. I would expect a 2 Amp motor to draw less power and be a little more efficient...so it will only require at most 2 HP * 1.54 = 2300 Watts. I think my requirement that the motor deliver 2 HP with a single phase motor is very reasonable.

When I get the bugs knocked out of my designs then perhaps I can pass the production runs off to someone with a faster machine.

[skullworks]

HP or Kw - Both are a measure of work by time.

Since your parameters are less than optimum ( 1PH 220VAC) you will have to run in speed ranges that are less than optimum.

There are thousands of Bridgeports with 1.5hp motors, and I think some of the older step pulley models even had 1hp motors. My Uncle has a 1.5 Vari-drive and a 2hp Vari-drive.

The Tormach is a great fit for what you want to do, and meets most your requirements except maybe cost.

I bought a 20yr old CNC Knee mill with a 3hp 3phase spindle which I am for the moment running on a phase converter. (I hope to be able to swap in a VFD in the future to run directly from 220V 1ph)

Since I am not on true 3ph I try to limit any cuts to about 2.4hp

Also in my favor is the back gear which gives me loads of torque to push those big drills when I need to.

I plan to add a true monster VMC to the toy collection later but for now what I have does everything I need - even in tool steels, it just requires careful job planning, tooling selection and proper speeds, feeds, and depth of cut for both the tool and the machine. Yes it does take longer than using Uncles Okuma or Mori Seiki but I don't have his 400Amp service either.

[Ed from NY]

A smaller machine is not only small in size. It is smaller in its capabilities. May be I misunderstood you, but I got the idea that you want big machine performance in a smaller package... and for $10,000. I don't think you will find it.

If you insist in single phase then IMHO your choice is simple. Get a desktop class machine (even if they come with a stand it is still desktop AFAIMC) like a Tormach, Industrial Hobbies, Syil, etc. Get your feet wet and see if you can live with their limitations. These 3 machines will make "parts" and can probably cut most of what a person familiar with their capabilities throw at them. However, they will not do it fast and "precision" will be relative. Also be prepared for varying degrees of teething problems and levels of support.

AFAIK that is really all that $10,000 and "single phase" will get you.

If you are willing to go 3-phase, then watch the used market.

BTW, what is "250 MPa yield strength steel"? Is that A36? That is very easy to cut. Any of the machines above will do it. However, it may not be as flat, as smooth, or as precise as you want.

[Rockn-Roll]

I'm learning as much about machine tools as I am about the people that keep them productive. Yes...I do believe 250MPa is the yield strength of A36 commercial steel...which is why I want something that will make precise .001" cuts in it...it's easily obtainable and relatively cheap and strong. I believe it's still the best strength for the dollar. It's also easy to weld. The drawbacks are rust and weight. Depending on the application the relatively high magnetic permeability can be a plus or minus.

I'm sorry Ed, but I don't know the difference between "big machine" performance or what would be a "smaller package"...I really don't know anything about what machine tools are available, but I am learning. I am looking for a machine tool that will cut steel with a yield strength of 250MPa (such as A36) at a precision of .001" that I can control with my computer. I've looked at the specs of machine tools from about a dozen companies, and most of them don't offer a precision of .001" until the installed motor is rated at 2HP...I have no clue why...I'm just looking at the specs and making some generalizations so I can narrow in on what machines I need to consider.

As for being stuck with single phase...I will most likely be moving to Oklahoma and setting things up in my uncles shop...which I believe he has 3 phase. However, I am totally not interested in a used machine...I'm inexperienced and would not know if the machine has problems or not...I would need the warranty and support from the manufacturer. After I have a couple of years experience then I can consider a fixer-upper or a DIY project. But, right now I just have engineering designs that I'd like to try out...and I believe a 2HP.001" precision CNC machine tool is what I need and I believe my established budget should be enough.

As for the Tormach...I recently learned that Tormach design engineers made the choice of using the parallel printer port as their communications device instead of the standard RS-232. And, even though it was considered a failed technology for future endeavors over 10 years ago they continue to use it even though main stream computer systems are no longer including them on the motherboard. As a computer engineer I consider that a very poor design choice for the computer component. I hope I don't offend anyone by indicating that...in my opinion...such a continued poor choice of design in an area for which I do have experience and education (it's an obvious flaw to me), and which I've noticed customers encountering problems with, makes me very suspicious of Tormach designs in areas that I do not have any expertise. Does that sound reasonable?

[skullworks]

Its now obvious you have no clue how these machines work.

RS-232 is an antiquated slow format which is painfully slow that has hung around because it is cheap and when applied properly for transfer of programs very reliable.

Except for a few odd hobby type exceptions RS-232 is not used to "Control" the machine, it is only used to upload/download or DNC to the machine control.

In the case of Tormach or any other Mach3, EMC2, TurboCNC, CNCPro you name it... The PC IS the control and the program is running in the PC.

Before you spend a penny on anything Machine tool wise you need to hire a tutor in the area on Machine technology and manufacturing methods.

You need to understand the completely different areas of CAD / CAM / and G-code interpretation. Also you need to do more homework on the materials physical and mechanical properties as to if they really are suitable for the application.

[Rockn-Roll]

My criteria for a CNC machine tool is that it have a spindle motor rated at least 2HP on single phase 220Volt and 3-axis precision of at least .001" for around $10,000 that can cut a 5"x5"x5" cube of steel.

mactech54 generously provided me with a suggestion to look at How-Mau...and after some assistance at finding a modern web site for them I am happy to say that their HM-145X does "appear" to meet those requirements. Spindle motor power is rated at 1.5KW using 220Volt Single phase (or apparently even 110Volt) which is equivalent to 2HP and the rated precision is exactly .001". The table is 24.65"x8.11" with table travel (x,y,z)=(11.81",7.87", 11.81") which will accomodate my theoretical 5"x5"x5" cube. And, the control system is Mach 3 which I have learned is a modern PC based control system. The price tag is $7650. They also have a model HM-241X with a 2.2KW motor (3 HP).

Edit: I just noticed that in the Electrical section of the HM-145X it indicates a power consumption of 750W...even the HM-241X only requires 1500W. Electric motors are not very efficient...if the spindle motor really is producing 1.5KW of cutting power, then the power requirement would be more like 3KW...nearly double, but the specs from How-Mau are indicating a power requirement of 1/2 the spindle power output. I only minored in physics, but I believe if a machine is only drawing 750W from a power source then the theoretical maximum it can produce is 750W. Perhaps it's a mistake or I'm not reading it right.

Thanks for the suggestions...keep them coming...I'd like to see if there is another one available that meets my requirements. The Tormach's don't, but thanks for the opportunity to take a look at them. The Okuma's are production machines with at least 10HP and have 3-phase power requirements which are more than what I'm looking for, but again...thanks for mentioning them.