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IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > Fanuc > Copying a PC Cassette (Fanuc 10M)
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  1. #1
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    Jun 2010
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    14

    Copying a PC Cassette (Fanuc 10M)

    I'm having a hard time getting a Fanuc PC Casette B on a 10M copied.

    Sent it out to have it done, and the result was close but not quite.... Basically the ladder is fine, machine powers up and runs OK, but lost all the screens that come after pressing the "PCMDI" soft key in the "PC" screen.

    Lost the tool management page, the manual ATC page and the PMC alarm page. Machine does run tho.

    It appears that there is more on the PC casette than just the ladder.

    Any idea on how to copy the contents completely? Is the only option to un-solder the 4 EPROMS's and copy them directly?

    This is on a Mori MV-40 from the late 80's, and Mori wants $5500 for a new programmed PC Cassette which is just not going to happan.

  2. #2
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    Feb 2011
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    Im not a big fan of how some OEMs do things...we took a mill that had pascal in it, had to add a robot interface-but it had some pascal compiled in it... (if theres pascal, without the source you cannot do anything with it- ANY changes will delete the pascal), we deleted all that stuff and wrote a 20-30 page ladder that was readable and functioned exactly as the original did, except the 1" high text called by the pascal was now called using standard operator messages, so it was smaller print...other than that functionally it was the same...IIRC that original ladder was 298 pages, didnt reuse a single line of it, under 30 pages was where it ended up.

    I think youre right about pulling the chips/copying them, but theres copyright issues with that too...theres a reason they make this stuff inaccessible, and its not for the customer/end users benefit in my opinion...its to bend them over later. theres enough machines scrapped out lately,you might email your program number to a few service/repair shops, might be a few on the shelf somewhere that havent been erased.

    that $5500 quote would make me shop for other makes from now on...theres quite a few brands that if we get them in, I just beg to be able to rewrite. theres probably a lot of guys that would come to your shop and spend a week to redesign the whole thing for that amount of money, yet all the OEM needs to do is burn the darn thing...its a pathetic business practice in my opinion

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    161
    There are 3 ways to copy the contents of the PMC cassette.

    1. unsolder the chips
    You run the risk of damage to the chips so this is my least favorite choice. I've only done this when I found that the PMC cassette was bad and we had no other alternative. It is best if you have access to a solder pot that unsolders all the pins simultaneously, at the correct temp and very quickly.


    2. Copy the cassette on the CNC
    Insert the PMC RAM board (there are 2 different ones) into the master board socket where the PMC Cassette normally resides. Power up and initialize it (2 procedures depending on the PMC RAM board). Plug your PMC Cassette into a PMC Writer that is connected to the CNC via RS232. Read in the ladder/Pascal. Put a blank PMC Cassette into the PMC Writer and write out the ladder/Pascal.


    3. Copy the cassette on a PG Mate/PG Mark II
    Boot up the PG with the PMC I/J Ladder and appropriate data disk. Mount the PMC Cassette into the side port of the PG Mate or into a PMC Writer connected through RS232 to the PG Mark II. Read the PMC Cassette into the PG memory. You must have the F10 key depressed to read/write the Pascal. Insert the blank PMC Cassette and write out the ladder/Pascal.


    I've used all the above methods and recommend methods 2 or 3 above, however; they require special equipment. Even if you had access to the equipment, I've only outlined the basic step. You'll probably end up unsoldering/soldering. If so, I'd use sockets when it is time to remount the chips.

  4. #4
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    Sep 2008
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    138
    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ee-monarch View Post
    I'm having a hard time getting a Fanuc PC Casette B on a 10M copied.

    Sent it out to have it done, and the result was close but not quite.... Basically the ladder is fine, machine powers up and runs OK, but lost all the screens that come after pressing the "PCMDI" soft key in the "PC" screen.

    Lost the tool management page, the manual ATC page and the PMC alarm page. Machine does run tho.

    It appears that there is more on the PC casette than just the ladder.

    Any idea on how to copy the contents completely? Is the only option to un-solder the 4 EPROMS's and copy them directly?

    This is on a Mori MV-40 from the late 80's, and Mori wants $5500 for a new programmed PC Cassette which is just not going to happan.
    Hi

    I already copy 4 Eprom. if you need it I will send

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    6028
    TC, yes thats a lot of money, but at least Mori is still willing to support a 25 year old machine! All the Fanucs were using PMC cassettes back then. I would send it to Uptime and have them do it.
    Uptime Electronics, Inc. - Retrofits

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    640
    did you ever find a solution yet?

    if not, whats the edition/program on your title page- slim chance we might have one- we scrapped a 10M mori last year...

    CNC2149- thanks for the info on the pascal- question: could the ladder part be edited on a PGMKII/Mate and recompiled without losing the Pascal? I was always told no...so never even tried.

    Underthetire- true- at least Mori supports it still- but these days Ive seen whole machines go for 5500 bucks, so its to me kinda like if Ford still sold spark plugs for a model-T at 1000.00 apiece
    the biggest thing I dont like about the moris/makinos/some others is the way they make the machine proprietary...weve had machines that dont toolchange go down for unused parts of the machine, and pretty much the only way to get them running is to repair the parts you arent using and let it complete its cycles...then theres the kinda odd things-weve got a bunch of mori lathes, MV25s I think, the goofy procedure required to realign the turrets is kinda bizzarre...just think there could have been a much more maintenance friendly way to do it.
    Makino used to offer good support, last time I called you had to buy the service- that was when we just decided to quit fighting the 'black box' pascal/hidden logic of the 'MPC2' controller, throw it out and write a standard cassette to replace it...took a week of my time, but those machines have been reconfigured a half dozen different ways that would have been impossible- the story I got on those was the original author had retired or died, and makino refused to modify logic at any cost...not my idea of a good way to control a machine...

  7. #7
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    Jun 2010
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    161
    Yes, the ladder can be edited on the PG system and the Pascal will be retained. Also, with the PG system the PMC + Pascal can also be saved to a floppy for archival purposes. In the event the PMC Cassette dies, a new one can be programmed with the backed up file.

  8. #8
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    Jun 2010
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    14
    Well we finally got the PC cassette copied!

    Ended up having to get the EPROM's un-soldered and copied directly. But it works!

  9. #9
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    Sep 2011
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    8
    Quote Originally Posted by cnc2149 View Post

    2. Copy the cassette on the CNC
    Insert the PMC RAM board (there are 2 different ones) into the master board socket where the PMC Cassette normally resides. Power up and initialize it (2 procedures depending on the PMC RAM board). Plug your PMC Cassette into a PMC Writer that is connected to the CNC via RS232. Read in the ladder/Pascal. Put a blank PMC Cassette into the PMC Writer and write out the ladder/Pascal.
    I'm planning to copy PC Cassette. Do you know is this procedure possible on Fanuc 11TE? Could you tell more precisely what equipements is required to perform this operation?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    161
    The 11TE was intended for COCOM countries so you will have cassette A/B. If you have the BMI interface, these are the parts that could be used with the CNC to copy the PMC cassette.

    1. A16B-1210-0340 PC RAM Board
    2. 1 set of 4002 PMC exec series EPROMs (4 EPROMs with FANUC S/W)
    3. A13B-0126-B001 or -B002 PC Writer + data cable


    I'm not sure how you would copy this on the CNC if you have the FS3/FS6 interface. It may require a PG system and that involves several other PN. Using the any of these methods is not for beginners. I suggest you find someone that says they have experience copying a PMC cassette and they have the necessary equipment.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    816
    I have an empty Cassette for my 10TF/TEF (not completely sure which it is). It would be nice to have a decent ladder from a 10T lathe.

  12. #12
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    Nov 2011
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    We have the problem with the FANUC PC CASSETE B A02B-0076-K002. CNC FANUC 10 M machining center MORI SEIKI M300A1 produced in 1988.
    When we turn the machine on the main board A16B-1010-0321/03A there appears mistake "J". After taking from another machine we found that the cassette is faulty. Probably the memory EPROM is affected and all 4 microchips are sealed. We do not know what is written there. May be you can send us your firmware and we will try to solder out (demount) our microchips.
    We do not want to risk and stop the machine, demount and read faulty EPROM.
    What else can we do? Should we contact MORI?
    The full name of the cassette: FANUC PC CASSETTE B PART J6 A02 - 076 - K002 SERIAL № 42793 DATE 88-1116
    Thanks a lot in advance for your help.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    12

    Re: Copying a PC Cassette (Fanuc 10M)

    Not sure if you remember but you had posted some info on copying the contents of a PMC cassette back in 2011! Maybe you still remember how to do this? So I have an old PMC-1 K001 cassette A. I have been getting a watchdog PC500 error on my fanuc 10TA machine. I did manage to get the eproms out and read them and then write them back to new eproms. However, I still get an error. What I want to do is to read off the contents of the actual PMC cassette in the format of a ladder so I can see that ladder and then maybe figure out what is going wrong here. After much searching, I now have an old working system P model G mark II FAPT machine that boots up. I also finally acquired a PMC writer. I then found the manuals for the system P machine. Thought I was set to go here. Unfortunately, the manuals do not say much about how to use the writer. The writer came with a cable that said "CNC side" and "system side". When I turn on the writer it has green LEDs that turn on, but then it has one light that stays on for the 2764 slot. I don't have anything in that slot. I have my cassette in the cassette slot only. When I go into the software on the old system P it does not seem to do anything as far as identify the PMC writer. It is all very primitive and user unfriendly worse than DOS so I don't even know if it is seeing the writer . Maybe the writer is not working or maybe I don't have the software set up correct or maybe the communication cable is wrong. I am thinking that maybe the cable is wrong as the manual shows the pins for the PMS writer different from a cable that hooks directly to a CNC slot? Can't find any manual on the PMC writer. Not even sure if it is possible to "read" the PMC cassette and then show the ladder on the system P as the cassette is in machine language (bunch of 00 to FF addresses) so the system P machine would have to translate it back into the ladder. I think I am close, but with no instructions and a pretty poor manual I think I may be missing something. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated as there is no one left today that remembers anything about this old technology.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    640

    Re: Copying a PC Cassette (Fanuc 10M)

    im away on vacation, but can try to talk you thru PG stuff to make a copy...
    put pmc i/j disk in the pig
    press and hold 'load' till screen flashes...wait for it to load to 'fapt ladder' screen...
    depending on your disk version-
    hopefully you will get in purple at bottom of screen 4 options- older stuff only gets 2 and editing is mnemonic only- ill assume you have newer firmware
    think R0 is programmer hit that and youll get main screen
    toggle F9 on, plug in pcwriter (think it goes in CN0), think '3' is the command for read ladder from fd/pc/cassette
    it will ask uou to enter 0/1 or yes/no for cassette type, and then should shift the green light to the cassette socket, and start counting addresses on screen as it loads

    to save, if you want a new 'work' disk for ladder programs only, put a blank disk in either drive(0=top/1=bottom drive) hit NL a couple times to return to the main fladder screen with purple prompts at the bottom, hit R3 make sure your firmware disk is removed in case you select wrong drive- dont want to erase it assuming you removed firmware disk from top drive and put a blank in(write protect hole blocked) back in top drive- type DINT 0 (disk initialize- like 'format' in DOS) and hit NL key- think it confirms you want to format it- say yes... when done, you can type FDLI L (for drive 0- optional, FDLI 0,L or FDLI 1,L for drive0/1) to list whats on it(like 'dir' in DOS) should list nothing but a bunch of free area... your firmware is still in memory, so you can type 'SAVE' to make a backup of the firmware- it will ask you which drive to use (has to be done before files are written to disk, as firmware will occupy like the first 16-18 file blocks on the disk), then FDLI L again to make sure its there...

    NL back to main screen, hit R0 again, turn off F9, turn on F7(i think- whatevrs for FD in/out) select 4(i think- whatevers for output ladder data to...)
    hit NL, it will ask you for 'save as'... type OK @Filename NL, it will write to disk(if using drive 0 , the 0 is optional, if using drive 1, type OK 1@filename...

    if you have the newer software(likely), NL back to main screen, hit R1 for edit, use the R0 key to scroll between ladder/nmemonic/symbol/etc pages...if you get stuck on the ladder page- use the top left blank softkey to escape back out... if R1 isnt on the purple menu, you have early software, and will need to go to R0 screen, then select 0 or 1(i forget- the first listed) to edit, and you will get mnemonic/symbol only stuff by flipping thru R0 choices... editing in mnemonics kinda sucks, but you can hit F4 key to flip between mnemonic and graphic ladder display.

    think thats kinda correct- try and see, should be close...I'm guessing maybe you didnt get the firmware to 'load' and were stuck there- ive found cryptic as the commands are (SAVE = format/s in DOS, DINT= format in DOS, FDLI L ( the L after is for pausing at each page- if F8/F9 are on) = dir/p in DOS) and using 0/1 instead of A:/B: for drive names, that the old PG software is surprisingly fast for editing...the toggling between symbol/adresses sucks, but otherwise, its pretty fast and easy-

    forgot one- if you list a disk and say theres 20 files listed, and you want to erase file #17 from drive 1-
    type SCRA 1:17 it will prompt you to confirm,
    FDLI 1,l again to relist, you'll notice * where 17 was, but disk blocks still occupied... type COND 1 to condense drive 1(kinda like defrag in dos, packs everything back into contiguous sectors of the disk- its slow as heck...)

    hope this helps a little with operating the pig...

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    12

    Re: Copying a PC Cassette (Fanuc 10M)

    Quote Originally Posted by tc429 View Post
    im away on vacation, but can try to talk you thru PG stuff to make a copy...
    put pmc i/j disk in the pig
    press and hold 'load' till screen flashes...wait for it to load to 'fapt ladder' screen...
    depending on your disk version-
    hopefully you will get in purple at bottom of screen 4 options- older stuff only gets 2 and editing is mnemonic only- ill assume you have newer firmware
    think R0 is programmer hit that and youll get main screen
    toggle F9 on, plug in pcwriter (think it goes in CN0), think '3' is the command for read ladder from fd/pc/cassette
    it will ask uou to enter 0/1 or yes/no for cassette type, and then should shift the green light to the cassette socket, and start counting addresses on screen as it loads

    to save, if you want a new 'work' disk for ladder programs only, put a blank disk in either drive(0=top/1=bottom drive) hit NL a couple times to return to the main fladder screen with purple prompts at the bottom, hit R3 make sure your firmware disk is removed in case you select wrong drive- dont want to erase it assuming you removed firmware disk from top drive and put a blank in(write protect hole blocked) back in top drive- type DINT 0 (disk initialize- like 'format' in DOS) and hit NL key- think it confirms you want to format it- say yes... when done, you can type FDLI L (for drive 0- optional, FDLI 0,L or FDLI 1,L for drive0/1) to list whats on it(like 'dir' in DOS) should list nothing but a bunch of free area... your firmware is still in memory, so you can type 'SAVE' to make a backup of the firmware- it will ask you which drive to use (has to be done before files are written to disk, as firmware will occupy like the first 16-18 file blocks on the disk), then FDLI L again to make sure its there...

    NL back to main screen, hit R0 again, turn off F9, turn on F7(i think- whatevrs for FD in/out) select 4(i think- whatevers for output ladder data to...)
    hit NL, it will ask you for 'save as'... type OK @Filename NL, it will write to disk(if using drive 0 , the 0 is optional, if using drive 1, type OK 1@filename...

    if you have the newer software(likely), NL back to main screen, hit R1 for edit, use the R0 key to scroll between ladder/nmemonic/symbol/etc pages...if you get stuck on the ladder page- use the top left blank softkey to escape back out... if R1 isnt on the purple menu, you have early software, and will need to go to R0 screen, then select 0 or 1(i forget- the first listed) to edit, and you will get mnemonic/symbol only stuff by flipping thru R0 choices... editing in mnemonics kinda sucks, but you can hit F4 key to flip between mnemonic and graphic ladder display.

    think thats kinda correct- try and see, should be close...I'm guessing maybe you didnt get the firmware to 'load' and were stuck there- ive found cryptic as the commands are (SAVE = format/s in DOS, DINT= format in DOS, FDLI L ( the L after is for pausing at each page- if F8/F9 are on) = dir/p in DOS) and using 0/1 instead of A:/B: for drive names, that the old PG software is surprisingly fast for editing...the toggling between symbol/adresses sucks, but otherwise, its pretty fast and easy-

    forgot one- if you list a disk and say theres 20 files listed, and you want to erase file #17 from drive 1-
    type SCRA 1:17 it will prompt you to confirm,
    FDLI 1,l again to relist, you'll notice * where 17 was, but disk blocks still occupied... type COND 1 to condense drive 1(kinda like defrag in dos, packs everything back into contiguous sectors of the disk- its slow as heck...)

    hope this helps a little with operating the pig...




    OK thanks!!! I am getting ready to try this now. Thanks for you lengthy response as maybe now I can figure this out. Will let you know how it goes.


    Also I am not sure of the cable that goes from the PIG to the PMC writer. There was a cable with the PMC writer but I do not know if it is correct. It fits, but that does not mean much. I do not know pin diagram for PIG to PMC writer/reader A13B-0126-B001. Will make up a new cable if need be. I am thinking it is a standard RS232C cable? I have the manual GFZ-55193E/06 and in appendix it shows 2 cable versions but I do not know if they relate to the PIG to PMC writer or are for something different. The first cable shown in the manual is "connection cable between system P and CNC (PMC-K,L,M,P) when punch panel is used. This diagram shows an DB- 25 pin connector with pin 2 to 3, pin 3 to 2, pin 4-5 connected together on each end, pins 20,6 and 8 connected together on each end, pin 7 to pin 7 and pin 1 to pin 1. When I measure my cable with ohm meter, I have 2-3, 3-2, 4-5 and 7-7 but no 20-6-8 and no 1-1. I really don't know what a "punch panel" is (maybe a breakout box?), but the PIG and the PMC writer do both have RS232 female connectors.



    The next cable version shows a cable when punch panel is not used but it has a Honda MR20LBMH connector on one side and a DB 25 on the other. I am thinking that must hook up to the CNC motherboard or something as neither the PMC writer nor the PIG has any Honda connectors on them.



    Since both the PIG (CN2 port) and the PMC writer both have DB 25 cables I would assume that version 1 is the correct one but it never says PIG to PMC writer. It instead says PIG to CNC so maybe this is yet something different.



    Would be good to verify that the cable is correct first as this may be part of the problem. Let me know if you have any info. No documentation on the PMC writer.


    I do also have old manuals Fanuc System P-Model G operators handbook B-54111E/01 1983, the Fanuc system P-Model G maintenance manual B-54159E, and the operators handbook system P -model G B-5??58/02 1983. However, none of these mention the cable from the PIG to the PMC writer. They mainly have tape punch info.


    I really appreciate your help.


    Tim T.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2

    Re: Copying a PC Cassette (Fanuc 10M)

    saludos me podrias compartir tus parametros ya que tengo un centro de maquinado con control fanuc 10m y se perdieron todos ya que se borro la memoria

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