[mishikwest]

Since general criticism of Haas machines in other posts is usually deemed "counter-productive". I'll start a fresh one dedicated to just that. The NON-productivity of a brand new Haas VF2ss.

In three months of ownership:

-main coolant line plugged by wad of teflon tape
-spindle air hose ruptured due to incorrect routing
-main board replacement
-mocon control/board replacement
-spindle replacement
-spider drive replacment
-doors fell of track
-coolant pump bad

cutters run are .500 and smaller on aluminum. Machine never crashed. Power supply is very clean, as is air. I'm getting a ballbar testing (at 40imp!) of .00035 and told that "that's as good as it gets.
POS

Factory attention and repair service have been ok, at least. However that does'nt do anything for the 9 days that I've been down thus far.

Just thought I'd share that my experience, in a proper thread

...and mention "Mori Dura Center 5".

[Chris D]

Hmm. interesting.

There is a local company that just purchased some Hass machines, 2 out of 4 were "Broke" from the factory. One required a complete tool changer replacement - don't understand why it couldn't be fixed? The other had some serious electronics/parameters problems with the live tooling spindle - it took about 20 phone calls and 3 months to get that working.

It's a shame. Haas really took off big time about 10 years or so ago and apparently, they grew too fast. Now it seems as though they can't produce quality nor can they keep up with service. I was hopeful that this american company would be "different" :-(

Chris

[unterhaus]

I wonder if your first and last problems are related. I was wondering about this while cleaning up a Bridgeport today at work. The coolant return holes are a clog waiting to happen, not that many run flood coolant on a BP. Our Haas (open style mill, not machining center) has the same kind of coolant return holes, and you have to keep on top of it or they clog. I guess most machine centers have a system that can't clog?

[Kool Parts]

Now it seems as though they can't produce quality nor can they keep up with service.

Bull****.
Gary

[Geof]

It would be nice if this thread could develop into something constructive not degenerate into a did-too/did-not type of name-calling. What I suggest is that either in this thread or preferably in a specially constructed modified poll people detail their experiences. I have several Haas and have had both good and bad experiences, with the bad (not too bad really) being associated with newer machines. If Haas does have a problem with QC drifting down this could show up if enough people contribute with good identification of their machines.

I mention a specially constructed poll and for this I need to attract the attention of Paul; hey, yoo hoo site boss-man: can you set something up with a bunch of fields labelled Model, Month/Year of manufacture, Cycle Start Time, Feed Cutting Time, Comments. If the structure could be set up to automatically rank machines by month/year when enough entries have been made it will be possible to see trends just by scanning down the list.

I know someone from Haas Apps scans this site, maybe others from Haas do also. Anyway what would accummulate over time is a pool of information that could be very helpful to Haas if they decided to take note of it. The information would also be helpful to people looking for information on Haas machines.

It would be possible to include Serial # in the fields but this could be a sensitive issue. It would mean that if a particular issue arose in consecutive serial numbers the reason behind it might be possible to identify more accurately. It would also mean that Haas would be able to identify people.

[miljnor]

Thats a good Idea Geof, hope Paul goes for it. After all it is a CNC forum right? I havn't bought new in awhile but everything CNC in my shop is HAAS. I typicaly buy used but it would be a sad thing if they are letting the production QC slip. Its probably just growing pains (hopefully) or just a couple of flukes.

Even if 10% of this sight had problems with HAAS (other than non users) thats still just a small worlwide sample.

most of the problems I have had are wear issues gear reduction boxes dying, low voltage power supplies ect.. but I have some 1993 machines in hear as well, cant expect em to last forever. (unless you pay more for em! )

[mishikwest]

I mention a specially constructed poll and for this I need to attract the attention of Paul; hey, yoo hoo site boss-man: can you set something up with a bunch of fields labelled Model, Month/Year of manufacture, Cycle Start Time, Feed Cutting Time, Comments.

If I worked for Haas maybe.

I've lost enough cutting time with this machine, let alone all related bureacracy of service..and frankly I'm madder than hell (as you can probably tell). What your suggesting should be done at the factory, nice idea with good intentions. I give the factory my $$ with the "understanding" that they've done the work necessary to provide just such a machine.

Only reason I'm posting this here is to hopefully spare someone else the headaches and trouble, not to just rant and bash.

m2c

[Kool Parts]

mishikwest,

Only reason I'm posting this here is to hopefully spare someone else the headaches and trouble, not to just rant and bash.

So.. you just want to make sure no one else buys a Haas so they will be spared the time and trouble. Because Haas machines are crap...
Thanks, I better go in back and make sure the doors are still on all the machines. I havent lost 9 days since I learned how to spell CNC.
Gary

[Chris D]

mishikwest,
So.. you just want to make sure no one else buys a Haas so they will be spared the time and trouble. Because Haas machines are crap...
Thanks, I better go in back and make sure the doors are still on all the machines. I havent lost 9 days since I learned how to spell CNC.
Gary

No need to attack someone here, we are just sharing our experiences. Like all things in life, we each have different experiences and as such, some may be contrary to yours. If your machines perform great, well then great. No need to attack those that don't have the good fortune of getting a good machine from Haas.

Chris

[Kool Parts]

Attack?
How did I attack? I simply thanked him for letting the world know the "truth" about Haas machines.
Now if I would have called bull**** on some of what he said...maybe. But I dident do that. I'm just happy for the lesson. :banana:
Gary

[Geof]

I have thirteen Haas machines ranging from a 1995 HL-1 to a 2005 GR510. Over a period of five years I have lost maybe a total of 9 days. My HL-1 has done 1300 hours of feed cutting time; that is not power on time but actual cutting time, without any problems. My VF0 has done 2200 hours of feed cutting time; power on time is 11000 hours, and the only problem has been a spade connector vibrating loose on the air pressure switch in the tool release assembly.

About 3 or 4 of my lost days were due to a Super MiniMill I bought in 2004 which gave all sorts of grief related to the tool changer. If this had been my first Haas it would have been my last.

Obviously it is not true to say Haas machines are crap but also it is not correct to tell someone when they detail bad experiences with a Haas machine that they are talking bs.

I don't blame mishikwest for being mad; I fired off a steaming letter to Haas for less than his problems, and it got results. My suggestion further up the thread was aimed at trying to see if people were interested in collecting together enough information so it would be possible to say to Haas look you're letting something slip.

[mishikwest]

Ahh, don't mind Kool Parts, that's just a Haas' customer relations e-bot crawling the web for anyone not toeing their company line.


Well, I'd say the factory took a big downturn (quality wise) post 2001. I've seen countless older machines (pre-2000) chugging away just fine, however the horror stories of new machines seem to be exponentially growing. Sure there's more machines out there now, but it appears there are a disproportionate amount of problems...especially BASIC quality control problems. Come on, how can doors that are barely attached make it out of the factory floor? Service tech's now have van's STOCKED with machine spindles. Sure that may seem like great service, but I'd call it a band-aid to the larger problem of initial build quality.

Once again, we've also got a 1yr. old Mori Dura Center 5, that's just over $100k new, and it is astounding how much better the machine is in nearly every way, for hardly more money than a comparable red, white, and grey American paperweight (occasionally) that some of us seem a little tooooo attached to.

[MR_NC]

Since general criticism of Haas machines in other posts is usually deemed "counter-productive". I'll start a fresh one dedicated to just that. The NON-productivity of a brand new Haas VF2ss.

In three months of ownership:

-main coolant line plugged by wad of teflon tape
-spindle air hose ruptured due to incorrect routing
-main board replacement
-mocon control/board replacement
-spindle replacement
-spider drive replacment
-doors fell of track
-coolant pump bad

cutters run are .500 and smaller on aluminum. Machine never crashed. Power supply is very clean, as is air. I'm getting a ballbar testing (at 40imp!) of .00035 and told that "that's as good as it gets.
POS

Factory attention and repair service have been ok, at least. However that does'nt do anything for the 9 days that I've been down thus far.

Just thought I'd share that my experience, in a proper thread

...and mention "Mori Dura Center 5".

I feel for your problems. However, your "Mori" plug is out of place. If you want to compare machines in the same rent district thats fine. However, you could buy probably 2-3 VF2-SS machines for the bottom of the pile in equal size from Mori.

If you let them have you down in the first 2 months 9 days, then you are not being pushy enough. Tell them get it up w/in 48 hours of going down or come and get it. You have to put the fire to people sometimes to get things done. Haas is no different.

Or you could just send back this machine you are so unhappy with and get your wallet out (big time) and go get your Mori. However, bashing an entire company over one machine just aint' going to take you very far. Presuming you are in no way at fault for the problems you are having.

We have a VF3-SS. The 05 Westec machine. It has been kicking ass for months. The only problem we have had was the auto air gun blew the hell up and had to be replaced. Given what I have seen from our SS I just ain't buying your post. If your power is right, and your air is good, and you are not using some home brew coolant mix, then you just got a bad machine. It happens regardless of who's name is on the front. However, that does NOT make everything from that company junk. You are welcome to come see our VF3-SS ripping .25 deep @ full 2.0 dia going 150IPM in aluminum. Then you can tell me some more about how the SS line is junk....

Regards,
Sean

[mishikwest]

I'm bashing a whole company? come on pal. If you wanna see that, I'll cc you my letters that have been going to haas.

I'm glad you got a "good one", seems like a 50/50 odds these days...from my informal sampleing, mind you.

Plug for Mori? Another Haas customer service e-bot here?

HERE'S a real plug for Mori:
HP and duty cycle that laughs at any 40 taper haas. Ballbar and positioning accuracy (ISO, not Haas' JIS bull) .0002. Oh, that's UNDER 100k$. I have the opportunity to be running them (100K$ mori and 78$ haas), side by side and the difference is astounding .

I do like the Haas control a bit better though. But ya know what makes the SS's machines "Super Speed"? Steeper pitch ballscrews. Oh yeah, but they're still using the same encoders as the "non-ss" machines. That's why accuracy goes out the window. Bet the salesmen did'nt tell ya that nice fact.

[Rekd]

Lets try to keep it civil please, thanks.

Ahh, don't mind Kool Parts, that's just a Haas' customer relations e-bot crawling the web for anyone not toeing their company line.

....

If that's true, I would have been exterminated by now.

We've got 5 HAAS' here, one is ~2 years old and a POS. Problems right from the start. One problem, which we reported well before the warranty expired, was never fixed, and now they say it's out of warranty and they're not going to fix it.

The other four are less than 5-6 years old. Problems with all of them. I've lost, on several occasions, more than 2 days at a time due to HAAS' lack of service and support and the fact that the machines are NOT as good as they used to be made. (I used to run dozens of the older ones and had very little problems)

We quit going to HAAS for repair and use an outside guy. It's a pain to get parts, but it's better than dealing with HAAS.

We will NOT be buying another HAAS. Period.

[FranH]

These comments are why I keep coming back here.

I worked for GE making thousands of compressor blades and vanes for a dozen different engines. The pressure was always on for shipping everything we could get our hands on each Friday night and the last Friday of every quarter. BUT QC called the shots!!! A low level inspector could shut an entire operation down involving perhaps hundreds of employees.....unless of course anyone higher up the chain of command choses to sign off the parts (and take full responsibility). This was very seldom done as answers were needed to some very probing questions from top management.

Here we have the classic expediter and production control calling the shots Their desire to keep the bean counters in the front office happy.... "We got xxx number of machines out today is most important." Their belief is if 90 out of a 100 is good enough...after all that is 90%. In a real world trying to compete with better machines, or, at least less troublesome machines made elsewhere this mindset will surely be a future problem. Until the "CLIMATE of management" changes, it will continue.

Why I say CLIMATE of management is simple.....if feedback from the field warrants a decision from top management to have spare spindle assemblies a day to day criteria for replacement, QC is only a whipping boy, present only at the pleasure of production.

Who here would volunteer to buy any one of the ten problem machines mentioned above?

"But we're doing 90% and thats good enough" is what production chimes.

What has not been learned is it is better business to keep a happy customer than it is to get a new customer. GM was taught this in the seventies.

To all....keep ventilating, keep levitating.....keep the comments coming.

[psychomill]

We will NOT be buying another HAAS. Period.

Welcome to the club Rek'd! :banana:

I have the opportunity to be running them (100K$ mori and 78$ haas), side by side and the difference is astounding .

Thats right... and I guarantee that I can cover the $22k difference in real short time. Then continue on to make way more money with it than a HAAS ever will occupying the same floor space. Not saying that HAAS doesn't have its place... just not in my shop

You are welcome to come see our VF3-SS ripping .25 deep @ full 2.0 dia going 150IPM in aluminum

That is impressive.... for a HAAS. I remember at a tool show not too long ago, they had a hard time cutting at that rate and speed,.... in the air! But, can't you push it any faster? How about .20 deep @ 2.0 dia going 540ipm? Or 2.0 dia, .15 deep x 1.0 step at 1200 ipm? or a 1.0 , full dia x .25 deep at 1180 ipm? Oh wait, the VF3-SS can only go 833ipm max., if could actually even sustain/maintain it.

I apologize ahead of time to all HAAS fans. Just ranting here. I do have some HAAS machines here. Use them for prep work, re-work, some 4th-axis stuff and some quick turn parts. But for serious production, forget it. I'll stick with my Mori, Mazak, Makino, etc, etc.

:cheers: :cheers:

[miljnor]

Every company has its problems. I just had a freind tell mori to come pick up 2 brand new machines and take the POS and stick somewhere..... you know the routine, same as with the haas. He went back to using Fadals and is happy as a clam. Go-figure.

I will say that the HAAS service has gone to hell in a handbasket in the last 4-5 years. Used to be you could have a tech out same day. Good luck getting them there in 2.

Don't know how good/bad the new machines are as I don't own any newer than 2000.

as far as 1200ipm 2" tool 1" step over. I don't have a single part that I could fixture to run this fast so its a non issue. Most of the parts we make at our shop are constrained by how much you can hold onto not how much the machine can do.

But man would I love to see that machine go! If anyone is in the So. Cal area that can run into these ranges give me an invite. I run the shear hog at 185ipm .160" deapth full envelopement and it sounds f'n loud as hell. Can only imagine what 1200ipm would be. I scare the sh!t out off customers now, would probably give em a heart attack with that. (nuts)

So here is to everyone's Heaps of steaming, well you know :cheers:

[Cold Fusion]

I'll take all these crappy Haas mills off your hands for $50 each

[psychomill]

But man would I love to see that machine go! If anyone is in the So. Cal area that can run into these ranges give me an invite. I run the shear hog at 185ipm .160" deapth full envelopement and it sounds f'n loud as hell. Can only imagine what 1200ipm would be. I scare the sh!t out off customers now, would probably give em a heart attack with that.

For the sound of it, fill a truck bed full of marbles, drive up onto a loading ramp, .... drop the tailgate and let the marbles go.... couple that with the sound of foghorn from a large carrier...... now picture that with a couple dozen spindles all doing the same thing.....


We sometimes like to "time" it so that we light up the machines when customers and/or potential customers are walking thru the shop.... :devious: :stickpoke

Had a toupee fall off of one guy, he jerked back so hard.... owner wasn't amused about it either though since we usually don't tell him beforehand....

:cheers: