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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Uncategorised MetalWorking Machines > Vertical Mill, Lathe Project Log > Show how to build a CNC machine from the very beginning to the end
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by CumminsMan03 View Post
    What a project! Looks awesome so far though!
    Hi man. Thank you for supporting my building here. I hope you have started to enjoy your CNC now

    Any questions and talk on CNC just be welcomed~ cheers
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfire View Post
    Hi guys. I'm updating now but not much work done today. I just watched a movie Cloud Atlas. It's an amazing movie very long almost 3 hours. Maybe you guys watched too.
    Haha.. I haven't watched it yet, but I did some work on it!

  3. #83
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    I'd like to talk more about linears here if it will be helpful to anyone.

    Linears are actually have many different features. Normally, we may say we are using just "linears", but not mention the details.

    Normally, we have three accuracy levels avaliable: C class; H class; P class

    The C class is most common and I guess most DIY conversions and machine buildings are using this type. It's no problem, I'm using the C class here also. The C class linears mostly used on wood CNC, routers, automation machines etc. Why I use it on this CNC building? because the benchtop CNC is of small travel range and the accuracy level doesn't make trouble---just enough for most hobby works. And don't forget this is a prototype only. Actually I think it should be an optional issue.

    The H class is the best choice for most industrial CNC machines. good accuracy and good cost-performance. The difference between H class and C class is not very obvious during building-- actually you will not feel any difference. The point is: the H class will maintain good accuracy when the machine cutting--almost can be seen as a solid part; but C class not that "solid", It will have some slight error generated of about 0.01-0.02mm or even more. If the machine is bigger, just be more.

    The P class is not very common here. and frankly our buildings are completely not match such high class linears. The P class ones can not show high accuracy with lower end ballscrews, bearings, and machine parts. If I can say, it at least should work with some C0/C1 class ballscrews, >P2 class bearings and even the ballscrews should be center cooling and pre-stretching.

    And the preload of linears is another important issue also. Normally, we should use the preload ones to deduce the distortion when meeting cuting force. The method of this preload should be oversizing balls in the linear block I guess.
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiagoSantos View Post
    Haha.. I haven't watched it yet, but I did some work on it!
    Haha, nice to meet you man. Believe me it's the one worth to watch...
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  5. #85
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    I was thinking about pouring wax into the bolt holes of my linear rails just to keep the crap out. I don't think my machine will move fast enough to be affected by the pockets air resistance.

    Which reminds me now that I am thinking of it. I used some thick Mil-spec grease and it almost seized my NSK bearing blocks. I used some brake cleaner to get the grease out, and it actually diluted it into a much thinner grease.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by nateman_doo View Post
    I was thinking about pouring wax into the bolt holes of my linear rails just to keep the crap out. I don't think my machine will move fast enough to be affected by the pockets air resistance.

    Which reminds me now that I am thinking of it. I used some thick Mil-spec grease and it almost seized my NSK bearing blocks. I used some brake cleaner to get the grease out, and it actually diluted it into a much thinner grease.
    Hi nateman_doo. Yes, our normal linear appliactions in CNC will not be that fast to make air resistance a problem. Just on some fast industrial CNC machines with the rapids over 10m/min and some fast auto machines it will be a problem.

    The covering of the bolt holes will definately help to keep the linear block clean.

    The thick grease is mostly used on some slow, heavy load machines. I think for linear rails the engine oil will be good. And an oil pump with tubes to feed oil to each linear block often will be best. But of course, It's not very necessory to a benchtop machine that we don't push it to heavy duty.

    When I want to remove thick grease from machine parts, I normally use kerosene, or gasoline. they will dissolve all thick oils and have good permeability. That's most common in China.

    Ps. When I clean some glue left by scotch tape, I will use kerosenne too. It really works well.

    cheers~
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  7. #87
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    BTW, some self-lubricating linear blocks will be a good choice too. It contains grease in every blocks and can work several years without feeding oil again. But maybe some more expensive. I havn't used such type linears yet.
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  8. #88
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    #2 grease or lighter works well on linear bearings.

    Quote Originally Posted by nateman_doo View Post
    I was thinking about pouring wax into the bolt holes of my linear rails just to keep the crap out. I don't think my machine will move fast enough to be affected by the pockets air resistance.
    You might try RTV. I'd be concerned about wax lacking the gripping capability and the impact solvents or oils would have on the wax.
    Which reminds me now that I am thinking of it. I used some thick Mil-spec grease and it almost seized my NSK bearing blocks. I used some brake cleaner to get the grease out, and it actually diluted it into a much thinner grease.
    We have many machines running linear rails with automatic greasers. These rails have seen as much as a decade of use 24/7. This is on plastics machinery so the loads are different but the cycle rates are high with rather fast movements. Grease isn't a problem unless its messiness becomes a problem. In some cases we have to run linear rails dry and put up with frequent replacements. So I've seen a wide range of usage when it comes to linear rails.

    It might pay to review the publications on THKs or other manufactures web sites. Selecting the right lubrication can lead to a system with a very long life. The important thing with either grease or oil is to make sure the bearings don't run dry. This will kill a linear rail pretty fast if it is under heavy load.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    You might try RTV. I'd be concerned about wax lacking the gripping capability and the impact solvents or oils would have on the wax.


    We have many machines running linear rails with automatic greasers. These rails have seen as much as a decade of use 24/7. This is on plastics machinery so the loads are different but the cycle rates are high with rather fast movements. Grease isn't a problem unless its messiness becomes a problem. In some cases we have to run linear rails dry and put up with frequent replacements. So I've seen a wide range of usage when it comes to linear rails.

    It might pay to review the publications on THKs or other manufactures web sites. Selecting the right lubrication can lead to a system with a very long life. The important thing with either grease or oil is to make sure the bearings don't run dry. This will kill a linear rail pretty fast if it is under heavy load.

    I think you get the point that must avoid the linears dry. I can understand some applications may not possible to add lubrication system to some automatic machines. I just know one brand of IKO from JP has the self-lubrication type linears. It might be the best solution to such applications. Just for reference.

    Cheers~
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  10. #90
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    Hi guys, I didn't work much these two days because fo CNY issue. But I did try to assemble the worktable and saddle part together. This is some simple work just if all parts were machined as the designed sizes. So I did just some screwing works and all of the screws just fit in well. The ballscrew and the mounts seems perfect match also. so I guess I will not get much trouble when formal installation.

    I use some high strength bolts of 12.9 class here. We alway use such class bolts on machines to make sure high rigidity under heavy load works. It's a small aspects but if don't do the small things right, no matter how good the "big" parts are, the total structure will just be weak. That's the truth of short plat theory.





    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfire View Post
    I use some high strength bolts of 12.9 class here. We alway use such class bolts on machines to make sure high rigidity under heavy load works. It's a small aspects but if don't do the small things right, no matter how good the "big" parts are, the total structure will just be weak. That's the truth of short plat theory.
    That's a great thing to do. I get most of my mechanical components from China and one thing I've noticed is that there's a tendency to go cheap with fasteners on components such as SBR rails and BK/FK blocks, which means I usually have to replace stripped bolts that weren't originally holding well (for SBR rails this is especially bad), and even if they are holding fine I need to replace them anyway so I can actually tighten them without stripping the hex head. Since I started using 12.9 I've not stripped any more bolts, very hard stuff! :cheers:

    BTW, nice build!
    http://www.build.cl

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walky View Post
    That's a great thing to do. I get most of my mechanical components from China and one thing I've noticed is that there's a tendency to go cheap with fasteners on components such as SBR rails and BK/FK blocks, which means I usually have to replace stripped bolts that weren't originally holding well (for SBR rails this is especially bad), and even if they are holding fine I need to replace them anyway so I can actually tighten them without stripping the hex head. Since I started using 12.9 I've not stripped any more bolts, very hard stuff! :cheers:

    BTW, nice build!
    Hi Walky, Thank you for your input. I think we touched some weak points usually happend on some China products. Yes, I can understand totally what you are saying. many products will just announce the "big" part of the components but ignore the small parts not easy to see. like bolts, yes. usually very cheap ones even not standard 8.8 class. And maybe also the bearings in BK/FK units.

    I don't know if you have disassembled some BK units and checked the bearings inside. I can tell you here many bearings are from no brand small bearing factories. even not P5 class, not good steel material, no any brand mark on the bearings or fake mark. That's the lowest end products and just cheap. I would like to use the real bearings of HRB--the best brand in China; or NSK from JP. They are just some best cost performance for my products.

    As to bolts, I always use 12.9 class ones from EG brand----one of the biggest bolt supplier in the world. good quality. That's totally fool to save maybe 1$ on such small parts.

    Since we touched something Made in China now, I want to say I want to do something beyond the cheap way. but the most cost performance way. I will not choose the most expensive parts, but must be the well known quality parts or quality parts we approved with reasonable cost. I think it's the way to manufacture good machines together with good cost control.


    I'm trying my way with Good idea&design, Good parts even smallest one, Good manufacture and Good service. And that's why I show every process of building mine machine here.

    I'd like to talk on every details including the smallest one, totally open my works and I think this is the way to be approved.

    Thank you again. Welcome more comments~ :cheers:
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  13. #93
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    Since I may don't have much work progress these two days, I'd like to share a small other DIY project here as I said to a friend. but still related to some hobby CNC app.

    I builded a LCD projector some days ago. but I wanted to change the light resource to a 150W LED light. So I milled a steel sheet to intall the LED module and mount a heat sink for PC video card to keep the LED cool. You know, the LED will burn rapid if temperature rises over 140 degree F. And I add a convex glass to concentrate the light.







    Then install the light source module to the projector. Finally I got a 1900*1200 solution LCD projector with a converted notebook LCD



    Here is the real projection image. Just to say, we really can do many small project we want with a CNC.
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  14. #94
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    Jul 2009
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    Looks like a nice projector! It's pretty clear that you enjoy building stuff, that's the first step to get things made right! . I made a (more basic) projector a few years ago but got tired of it because is was extremely noisy and hot (used a lamp from an OHP, never got a metal halide as originally planned), it's still over a table in the workshop while I think what to do with it.

    Yes, I've seen the BK/FK insides, I actually open all of the blocks I get so I can preload them, add grease and do a few other modifications to reduce seal friction (some of them can easily loosen the ballscrew's locknut by friction alone). I must confess so far I've been using the stock bearings as mine are woodworking machines and in my experience they hold pretty well for that application, though I've been browsing options to get some good bearing replacements (o just get better blocks and save me the modification work).

    I agree that it doesn't make sense to save $1 in a critical part. I'd gladly pay a money difference much bigger than that if it saves me enough trouble (it's not fun to spend a couple of hours in a trip to the hardware store just to get 10 bolts). Same applies to details such as bearing block play and lack of grease. I know there are some chinese BK/BF blocks of much better quality but it's almost impossible to know which ones are the real deal without some feedback from previous customers. There are some known UK and USA providers of blocks which are known to be very good quality but they can cost 4X as much, not to mention shipping (usually more expensive than China) and customs. So sadly some tradeoffs must be made.

    :violin:
    http://www.build.cl

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walky View Post
    Looks like a nice projector! It's pretty clear that you enjoy building stuff, that's the first step to get things made right! . I made a (more basic) projector a few years ago but got tired of it because is was extremely noisy and hot (used a lamp from an OHP, never got a metal halide as originally planned), it's still over a table in the workshop while I think what to do with it.

    Yes, I've seen the BK/FK insides, I actually open all of the blocks I get so I can preload them, add grease and do a few other modifications to reduce seal friction (some of them can easily loosen the ballscrew's locknut by friction alone). I must confess so far I've been using the stock bearings as mine are woodworking machines and in my experience they hold pretty well for that application, though I've been browsing options to get some good bearing replacements (o just get better blocks and save me the modification work).

    I agree that it doesn't make sense to save $1 in a critical part. I'd gladly pay a money difference much bigger than that if it saves me enough trouble (it's not fun to spend a couple of hours in a trip to the hardware store just to get 10 bolts). Same applies to details such as bearing block play and lack of grease. I know there are some chinese BK/BF blocks of much better quality but it's almost impossible to know which ones are the real deal without some feedback from previous customers. There are some known UK and USA providers of blocks which are known to be very good quality but they can cost 4X as much, not to mention shipping (usually more expensive than China) and customs. So sadly some tradeoffs must be made.

    :violin:
    Hi man, Thank you for your great comments. I know the projector noise issue. But mine using LED light is some quiet because of less heat generated than traditional lamp. I think maybe you can try this solutions. Mine have 150W power and 16000lumen. so should be some good solution to get a slient projector

    Actually the BK/FK product quality in China is okey now. the problem is the QC process is not very good. So some maybe okey, but some may have gap inside and the bearings are not preloaded at all. So I think this is the point together with the bearing quality issue.

    I just visited your website and saw great works of your machines. Really nice machine works:cheers:

    I have had some idea to build wood machines when I were building the casting molds in this thread. Such wood machines will help much if I have one. Maybe I will build some in future.
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  16. #96
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    Jul 2011
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    Hi, guys. I would like to talk some about the motor issues. including the axis drive motor and spindle motors.

    I plan to use just the common 2phase stepper motor drive system on the initial prototype. I get three samples from supplier side and the features are:

    NEMA23 2phase 4lines;
    rated current 3.0A;
    holding torque 1.9N.M;
    dule shaft with a small aluminium handwheel.

    I think the stepper motors are very common now and many many suppliers avaliable. And just no problem for most benchtop CNC applications. I choosed this one because of fitful torque and the handwheel will be some good convience for building and usage. Another thinking is that I may use some encoders to make the CNC to be a colsed-loop drive. So it will be easy to remove the handwheels and install the encoders then.

    For the last version of this CNC, I may choose some bigger torque of 2.5N.M. more torque will be always better to avoid losing step.

    For the motor driver, microstep drivers will always be my choice. I think I will use at least 64 microstep, 4A ones for this machine. not decided yet.

    I'm also considering some servo drive system about this NEMA23 size too for some optional choice. DC ones or BLDC ones.

    Welcome any comments about motor issues~



    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  17. #97
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    As to the spindle motor, my current selection is the BLDC motor system. I prefer BLDC system much because of high power massy, constant torque from low to high speed. very good for spindle applications. The real problem is the driver system is some complex issue than AC motor vs VFD. I jus have one good BLDC driver sample developed before, so I will use the BLDC motor wiith it for test and approvement.

    I got a BLDC motor sample of following features:
    0.75HP power;
    3000RPM MAX;
    rated torque 1.8N.M

    There are some bigger power ones also like 1HP. but I think 0.75HP should be enough. and I also plan to use two ratio timing pulleys to get spindle speed range of 200-3000RPM; and a high range of 400-6000RPM. I think this will make some sense too even I think 3000RPM for this benchtop CNC is enough for most applications.

    Here is the BLDC motor I plan to use: seems good. but I have not run it up at all. I plan to test it when most machanical structure builded.





    Any talk on such spindle drive system no matter BLDC or AC&VFD issues are welcomed.

    BTW: I have some AC motor system avaliable also. direct support PWM signals so don't need to convert the spindle control signals of MACH series CNC software to linear voltage signals. I may make such system as the backup solution too.
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  18. #98
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    Jan 2008
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    52
    You may have constant torque but just like with a vfd your hp will vary in proportional to the motor speed up to it's base speed (3000 in your case). At 200 rpm you'll only have 0.05hp... and that is extremely low even for a small lathe. Think of hp as the ability to remove material at a certain rate. That rate will depend on your lathe rigidity, material choice and overall design goals.

    I'm placing a 5.3hp AC servo (140 in-lb) on an 11x26 lathe just to have reasonable hp at 200 rpm, and even then I'm gearing with HTD belts to give 0-750 and 0-2300 ranges. Why 5.3hp? I had one The downside of such high torque is tool crashes at higher speeds!

    One way to look at it is that if it was a manual lathe equiped with a 0.75hp motor and belt drives, that power would be available at all speed selections.

    Another is to determine the minimum amount of material volume you want to remove per minute (within the rigidity contraints of the lathe) and work backwards to required hp. Here's two random small lathe examples (don't sweat the material, feed rate etc choices - just examples). Using postive rake finishing carbide at say 350 sfm:

    Roughing (small lathe!) on 1.5 inch diameter mild steel needs 891 rpm, 8.91 in/minute feed rate, and 0.010 DOC results in 0.420 cu. inches removal per minute. If your drive train is 95% efficent, and the material is say mild steel (requires 1hp per cubic inch/minute) you'll need 0.441hp, and required torque is 29.64 in-lb. With your 0.75hp motor, you only have 16 inch-lb. If you drop the feed rate to half, you can just make it, BUT.. you will quickly run up against the minimum DOC etc for the chosen carbide.

    Taking this to the other extreme, a 7 inch diameter workpiece using 0.005 feed, mild steel, 0.10 doc, and 350sfm, gives feed rate of 0.95 IPM and 191 rpm, 0.221hp and 69 in/ib torgue. Your 3000rpm 0.75hp motor only has 0.063hp and 16in/lb.

    I chose mild steel as an example because it's an easy calc of 1hp per cubic in/minute. If you are turning aluminum or 4140 these numbers change radically (up and down). Carbide allows higher SFM, but does not (generally) allow very small DOC. HSS allows for very small DOC, but at much lower SFM. Run the numbers!

    You can work your own examples using the these two online calculators:

    Turning Speed and Feed Calculator
    Turning Horsepower Calculator

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside53 View Post
    You may have constant torque but just like with a vfd your hp will vary in proportional to the motor speed up to it's base speed (3000 in your case). At 200 rpm you'll only have 0.05hp... and that is extremely low even for a small lathe. Think of hp as the ability to remove material at a certain rate. That rate will depend on your lathe rigidity, material choice and overall design goals.

    I'm placing a 5.3hp AC servo (140 in-lb) on an 11x26 lathe just to have reasonable hp at 200 rpm, and even then I'm gearing with HTD belts to give 0-750 and 0-2300 ranges. Why 5.3hp? I had one The downside of such high torque is tool crashes at higher speeds!

    One way to look at it is that if it was a manual lathe equiped with a 0.75hp motor and belt drives, that power would be available at all speed selections.

    Another is to determine the minimum amount of material volume you want to remove per minute (within the rigidity contraints of the lathe) and work backwards to required hp. Here's two random small lathe examples (don't sweat the material, feed rate etc choices - just examples). Using postive rake finishing carbide at say 350 sfm:

    Roughing (small lathe!) on 1.5 inch diameter mild steel needs 891 rpm, 8.91 in/minute feed rate, and 0.010 DOC results in 0.420 cu. inches removal per minute. If your drive train is 95% efficent, and the material is say mild steel (requires 1hp per cubic inch/minute) you'll need 0.441hp, and required torque is 29.64 in-lb. With your 0.75hp motor, you only have 16 inch-lb. If you drop the feed rate to half, you can just make it, BUT.. you will quickly run up against the minimum DOC etc for the chosen carbide.

    Taking this to the other extreme, a 7 inch diameter workpiece using 0.005 feed, mild steel, 0.10 doc, and 350sfm, gives feed rate of 0.95 IPM and 191 rpm, 0.221hp and 69 in/ib torgue. Your 3000rpm 0.75hp motor only has 0.063hp and 16in/lb.

    I chose mild steel as an example because it's an easy calc of 1hp per cubic in/minute. If you are turning aluminum or 4140 these numbers change radically (up and down). Carbide allows higher SFM, but does not (generally) allow very small DOC. HSS allows for very small DOC, but at much lower SFM. Run the numbers!

    You can work your own examples using the these two online calculators:

    Turning Speed and Feed Calculator
    Turning Horsepower Calculator
    Hi lakeside53, thank you for inputs and very detailed examples. And, the website you provide is a very helpful tool for cutting appliactions. I stored it, very appreciate.

    Your examples gave some critical issues about AC motor applications under low speed conditions. Yes, the AC motor is constant torque until reaching the base frequence, and then constant power. I think there is no good method to make the motor be powerful enough to gain MAX horsepower output unless use the gear systems. There are some software optimizing methods to make the AC motor more powerful in low speed range but won't change much and will cause the motor thermal rising probem.

    So that's the reason why I like BLDC system. The BLDC system can have constant torque and MAX 4 times rated torque in low speed range. And the peak torque can even last several minutes. The AC motors can only have about 1.5 times rated torque. So, the BLDC system is much powerful, of course, the driver software must be optimized for this, that we called "torque compensation".

    Another issue is that the size and weight of same power. For example, the same power of 0.75hp, the AC motor will be around 20KG with big size about NEMA63; but the BLDC motor will be only around 3-4KG, only NEMA32 size MAX.

    Because my benchtop mill is of some compact size, I don't want to use any cone-pulley system to make the spidnle system complex, and I plan to place the spindle motor inside the spindle box(need compact size motor), and I don't want to make the Z axis move hard, I plan to go with BLDC sytem. I just need to approve the BLDC driver can have good performance. I will test this when machine body build finished. Then I will decide the last selection. but difnately the AC motor system will not be a satisfied choice without cone-pulley system.

    Thank you for great input again and welcome more ~:cheers:
    www.skyfirecnc.com
    Email: [email protected]; Skype: skyfirecnc

  20. #100
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    Jan 2008
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    52
    Not sure why you think the 0.75hp AC servo motor would weight 20kg. I see the weight for modern 750 watt (1hp) AC servo motors (3000-6000rpm ) at 2.9 kg... And these are rated for 3.5X peaks. Look up the data for a Mitsubishi HF-KP73A.

    I think there is some confusion. The AC Servos I'm talking about are BLDC.

    My spindle motor is a BLDC AC PM servo - a not a stock induction motor run with a VFD, and is about 1/4 - 1/8 of the weight of the similar induction motor. It's older (Emerson MGE4120 but capable of 2X torque for sustained peaks from zero to 3000 rpm, but for CNC lathe applications I never design with peak capability in mind. The problem with using "peaks" is that you cannot sustain many peaks back to back (look at the duty cycle data), and that's what CNC machines do.

    Even if you can run peak of 4X sustained at low speed (you cannot for long -expecially with repetitive opertations), that's still only a 0.2hp PEAK motor at 200hz. Of course, if that meets your needs, that's fine.

    I'm also using AC servos (BLDC) for the X and Z axis - 200 and 400 watt respectively (Mitsubishi HF-KP23 and HF-KP43). These are small and have flat torque/speed curves. Unlike steppers they have close to 100% torque at 100% rpm (3000 rpm in this case, but are allowed to be run up to 4500). Of course, they cost a heck of a lot more! These are driven from MR-J3-xxA AC servo amps (which I'm buying used... crazy expensive new).

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