[aarggh]

640oz/in is fairly serious stuff! You should be able to plow through just about anything with that!

But I'd personally recommend not using round rails but linear rails instead for rigidity and accuracy/speed.

Cheers,
Ian

[Eddymeister]

Well...

Another delivery arrived today... This time from Keling...

Power Supply KL-5020...

Yay... But still have to order the BOB and bits and pieces from PMDX...
Will be ordering:
1 x PMDX-126 Breakout Board
2 x PMDX-133 Gecko Boards
1 x PMDX-107 Spindle Control Board
A Dual Parallel card
And an assortment of cables

Would anyone know of a link or some pics of these boards wired up...?
I've read through the manuals but I'm no electrician and would rather check that I'm on the right track...

Even a block diagram would help...

I'll post some pics of the goodies I've got already sometime soon...

[adprinter]

Well, it sounds as though you are right where I was this time last year. I had built a 3-axis machine with 24" travel on the Y, 32" travel on the X, and 3.25" travel on the Z. I wanted to add a 4th axis to my machine, oriented horizontally (think lathe) along one side of the table. But the limited Z axis travel simply would not allow for this. Which is what prompted a complete re-design, and rebuild of the entire machine to accommodate the 4th axis addition. What I ended up with, Y=36", X=36", Z=18", A=up to 8" diameter x 24" stock length. The design allows the machine to function as both a mill, and a lathe. During the re-design/re-build, I added an improved design (poor man's) linear rail system on the X axis to handle the increased weight of the larger Y and Z assemblies. It consists of 1.5" steel square tubes with 1/4" thick walls which serve as the actual rails, and 4" steel square tubes which ride these rails via swing bolts and skate wheel bearings. This allows for the bearings to be loaded against the rails adjustably, and took some tweaking through trial and error to get it just right. The new gantry assembly weighs approximately 200 lbs. and carries a 1.75 hp router. For the A axis (4th axis), I ended up utilizing a toothed belt direct motor drive, on the headstock. And constructed a pair of steel angle rails along which the tailstock rides. The 4th axis is permanently mounted along one side of the table, so that it is completely out of the way for milling operations. The increased Y travel allows the router to be positioned up to about 2.5" beyond the centerline of the 4th axis, but I later added a limit switch to precisely position the router's center directly above the 4th axis centerline for lathe function. I have learned since starting all of this, that at any time, it is a work in progress. I am continually adding improvements to the design, as I originally wanted a machine capable of machining metals (aluminum), or wood. However, without speed control a router is pretty much useless as a cutting spindle for machining aluminum. But does a great job on wood (Oak, pine, etc.)

[aarggh]

However, without speed control a router is pretty much useless as a cutting spindle for machining aluminum. But does a great job on wood (Oak, pine, etc.)

Another real problem with using a router for machining aluminium is the very fine dust that can be created during the process and blows around the workshop. Alu dust is actually extremely hazardous, not only to your health, and as a fire/explosion risk (sounds ridiculous being metal but true!), but more importantly, any standard motor with brushes will be blowing the dust as it's created around the work area, and ALSO will be sucking it through the motor housing, creating a VERY strong risk of blowing the motor with conductive metal powder!

I've seen a lot of talk on the forums from people preferring routers, and also air cooled spindles, but to my mind:

Routers, I've been using them in my daily personal and work life for reno and building work for the last 20 years, and love them! If you could only ever get one power tool, it would have to be a router as there is almost nothing you can't do with one, but for cnc, once your beyond starting out, they suck big time! Routers are at the bottom of the list for cnc in my opinion as they are bulky, power hungry, noisy, burn out when run for extended periods, very inefficient, non-precise, and most importantly, require a very decent air flow through the spindle/armature, which means blowing AND sucking waste through the router and the entire work area, and into your lungs! I'm rapidly learning just how dangerous this can be!

Air cooled spindles with suitable VFD's are a beautifully powerful and fairly efficient cutting tool, with an amazingly reduced amount of noise when machining. But after doing a fair bit of wood and metal machining, I don't consider them a long term practical or cost effective solution. Again, one of the main problems is it creates and requires an airflow through the device. And fans do fail! And the feedback i've seen with air cooled spindles is that this happens all too often.

I've used almost every type of router in creation, but I must say that for me, the water cooled spindles are the only way I want to travel for CNC work now! Super quiet, NO swirling waste dust billowing around the workshop, over everything in a 20 foot radius, into my lungs, through my power tools, no heat build up, etc. etc. It's Win, Win to me! The only dust problem is the dust naturally ejected from the cutting action of the bit. You can contain this fairly well without even using extraction during machining by using flat panels to contain the waste as I do.

I really couldn't recommend them enough, the other problem of course is how to extract the waste when machining aluminium, for wood certainly Bill Pentz's cyclone separator design (freely available) is the bee's knee's, but most brush motor powered extractors on their own would be destroyed at some point by the fine waste sucked through the vents or the filters on them.

If you have a computer sitting near the cnc machine, this will be sucking in aluminium particles too!

Some food for thought while working on your machine design anyway, and purely from my own experiences and opinion, i'm sure many will disagree based on their own experiences.

cheers,
Ian

[ger21]

Good dust collection at the cutting tool will alleviate all the problems you mention, even when cutting aluminum. I've cut MDF for 8 hours straight, without a spec of dust anywhere in my shop. While a single cut on my table saw will leave a light dusting everywhere.

And fans do fail! And the feedback i've seen with air cooled spindles is that this happens all too often.

The fans are mounted to the shaft. Are you saying they break off or come loose? I haven't heard that, but better than 95% are using water cooled spindles, so you don't see many air cooled ones here.

[Eddymeister]

Well, it sounds as though you are right where I was this time last year. I had built a 3-axis machine with 24" travel on the Y, 32" travel on the X, and 3.25" travel on the Z. I wanted to add a 4th axis to my machine, oriented horizontally (think lathe) along one side of the table. But the limited Z axis travel simply would not allow for this. Which is what prompted a complete re-design, and rebuild of the entire machine to accommodate the 4th axis addition. What I ended up with, Y=36", X=36", Z=18", A=up to 8" diameter x 24" stock length. The design allows the machine to function as both a mill, and a lathe. During the re-design/re-build, I added an improved design (poor man's) linear rail system on the X axis to handle the increased weight of the larger Y and Z assemblies. It consists of 1.5" steel square tubes with 1/4" thick walls which serve as the actual rails, and 4" steel square tubes which ride these rails via swing bolts and skate wheel bearings. This allows for the bearings to be loaded against the rails adjustably, and took some tweaking through trial and error to get it just right. The new gantry assembly weighs approximately 200 lbs. and carries a 1.75 hp router. For the A axis (4th axis), I ended up utilizing a toothed belt direct motor drive, on the headstock. And constructed a pair of steel angle rails along which the tailstock rides. The 4th axis is permanently mounted along one side of the table, so that it is completely out of the way for milling operations. The increased Y travel allows the router to be positioned up to about 2.5" beyond the centerline of the 4th axis, but I later added a limit switch to precisely position the router's center directly above the 4th axis centerline for lathe function. I have learned since starting all of this, that at any time, it is a work in progress. I am continually adding improvements to the design, as I originally wanted a machine capable of machining metals (aluminum), or wood. However, without speed control a router is pretty much useless as a cutting spindle for machining aluminum. But does a great job on wood (Oak, pine, etc.)

Hey Adprinter...

Thanks for sharing... Would you have a link to your build... Especially any photos? I'd like to see your machine and the setup as far as Z axis extents and such... Sounds like it was bit of a major overhaul of your machine to get the 4th axis involved...
Cheers for posting too...

[Eddymeister]

Another real problem with using a router for machining aluminium is the very fine dust that can be created during the process and blows around the workshop. Alu dust is actually extremely hazardous, not only to your health, and as a fire/explosion risk (sounds ridiculous being metal but true!), but more importantly, any standard motor with brushes will be blowing the dust as it's created around the work area, and ALSO will be sucking it through the motor housing, creating a VERY strong risk of blowing the motor with conductive metal powder!

I've seen a lot of talk on the forums from people preferring routers, and also air cooled spindles, but to my mind:

Routers, I've been using them in my daily personal and work life for reno and building work for the last 20 years, and love them! If you could only ever get one power tool, it would have to be a router as there is almost nothing you can't do with one, but for cnc, once your beyond starting out, they suck big time! Routers are at the bottom of the list for cnc in my opinion as they are bulky, power hungry, noisy, burn out when run for extended periods, very inefficient, non-precise, and most importantly, require a very decent air flow through the spindle/armature, which means blowing AND sucking waste through the router and the entire work area, and into your lungs! I'm rapidly learning just how dangerous this can be!

Air cooled spindles with suitable VFD's are a beautifully powerful and fairly efficient cutting tool, with an amazingly reduced amount of noise when machining. But after doing a fair bit of wood and metal machining, I don't consider them a long term practical or cost effective solution. Again, one of the main problems is it creates and requires an airflow through the device. And fans do fail! And the feedback i've seen with air cooled spindles is that this happens all too often.

I've used almost every type of router in creation, but I must say that for me, the water cooled spindles are the only way I want to travel for CNC work now! Super quiet, NO swirling waste dust billowing around the workshop, over everything in a 20 foot radius, into my lungs, through my power tools, no heat build up, etc. etc. It's Win, Win to me! The only dust problem is the dust naturally ejected from the cutting action of the bit. You can contain this fairly well without even using extraction during machining by using flat panels to contain the waste as I do.

I really couldn't recommend them enough, the other problem of course is how to extract the waste when machining aluminium, for wood certainly Bill Pentz's cyclone separator design (freely available) is the bee's knee's, but most brush motor powered extractors on their own would be destroyed at some point by the fine waste sucked through the vents or the filters on them.

If you have a computer sitting near the cnc machine, this will be sucking in aluminium particles too!

Some food for thought while working on your machine design anyway, and purely from my own experiences and opinion, i'm sure many will disagree based on their own experiences.

cheers,
Ian

G'day Aaarrghhh!!!
Hahah... Nice username by the way...!
Interesting you bring those issues to light... As far as disagreeing with you I'm new to the world of CNC and would never forgo the words of people who are experienced...
I had no idea that Aluminum dust was explosive... I built a Plate Boat in my back yard and it certainly rings a bell in the way of being toxic too... I must have sanded that thing 8 times over... And it wasn't little too... 7 meters long...
I do like the idea of a water cooled spindle for a cutter tho... Would you know of any links so I could take a look...? For now the budget will only stretch as far as a router... But I have 3 or 4 of these already... I'll probably start by just cutting MDF till I get experienced enough to start cutting ally... After all I don't want to make mistakes that'll just cost money... For me I can acquire MDF cheaply and readily...

Have you had any experience with the Ebay water cooled spindles...? I'm a little dubious about them... But no real evidence to support my wariness... I'd rather get feed back from those who have used them...

By the way is there a link to the Cyclone Dust Extraction you mentioned...?

Cheers for the words fellas...
Keep it coming!

[aarggh]

Have you had any experience with the Ebay water cooled spindles...? I'm a little dubious about them... But no real evidence to support my wariness... I'd rather get feed back from those who have used them...

By the way is there a link to the Cyclone Dust Extraction you mentioned...?

Cheers for the words fellas...
Keep it coming!

Hi Eddymeister,

Yeah, it blew me away when I started looking into decent dust collection and found how dangerous machining certain stuff can be. I know some people have the kind of luck that they could smoke next to a gas pump daily for years, and never have an accident, but with my luck I'll be the guy walking past a gas pump and drop my keys and the whole place will explode!

I've always used Festo extractors on my power tools, so have never had clouds of dust being an issue. But with the cnc machine it's a real problem. I actually blew one of my extractors machining aluminium recently. I haven't looked yet to see if it was minute particles whipped up in the air stream, or they punched through the filter but it shorted out the motor anyway it looks.

I love wood routers, but they are clunky, dusty, and inconsiderate to the neighborhood. You could get the Super PID to slow and quiet them down, but they are still a brush motor and will generate large amounts of air streams. Again, my opinion only, but routers just aren't a long term proposition for constant and frequent cnc machining in a non-industrial environment compared to the benefits from spindles. And as with all good tools, when you get one, you wonder how did you ever get by for so long without one!

I have two Chinese ebay water cooled spindles, and was initially very worried about water running through a motor, but pulled one apart to see how it was built as it had a bit of bearing noise compared to the new one, and I can't see any issue with them. So long as they are properly sealed and most importantly, tightened up well, they should never be a problem unless they get clogged from contaniminates in the cooling fluid. I actually keep my pump and fluid in a fairly well sealed container, and have a towel covering the whole lot to stop any possiblity of even minute particles getting in.

The ones on ebay are all varants of the same ranges found, and are a proven technology, so I don't see any issue at all with buying them, they are certainly far cheaper than manufacturers from other countries, but that doesn't mean they any less well-made or inferior. They are also sold in massive quantities world wide and i've never seen any reports of manufacturing or performance issues in forums about them so far, although nothing is perfect. I'll certainly be buying more VFD's and spindles in various ratings, and very cheaply thank you very much Mr Chinese seller!

Here's a couple of links using Bill Pentz's cyclone design, he patented it and has made it all freely available, very worth checking out, not just for health, but also to extend the life and power of your equipment:

DIY Cyclone Dust Collector - by SimonSKL @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community

The Thien Cyclone Separator Lid w/ the Thien Cyclone Separator Baffle

Bill's Cyclone & Dust Collection Research - Cyclone Plans

I'm still researching using it for alu work as wel as general routing, but as it has more mass than wood dust, I don't see why it wouldn't perform just as well for that? Worst case I guess is all the wood goes into the hopper and maybe more of the metal gets to the extractor. Time will tell.

cheers,
Ian

[aarggh]

Good dust collection at the cutting tool will alleviate all the problems you mention, even when cutting aluminum. I've cut MDF for 8 hours straight, without a spec of dust anywhere in my shop. While a single cut on my table saw will leave a light dusting everywhere.



The fans are mounted to the shaft. Are you saying they break off or come loose? I haven't heard that, but better than 95% are using water cooled spindles, so you don't see many air cooled ones here.

Hi Gerry,

That is true to a certain extent with the dust collection, but you still have the serious problems of spindle runout, wear on the machine from continous running, heat build-up from a 2000W heater source, massive air being fan forced from below and above the router, this means your dust collection needs to be oversized to allow. While no-one here would dispute your great amount of skills and knowledge in CNC and woodworking, I've yet to see any hobbiests especially, or tradies, or builders, I know of anyway, that have ever had a truly great system, that didn't let at least smallish amounts continuously bypass some part of the extraction system either through a combination of design, placement, or power scaling.

Again, and I state this is purely my opinion, I really don't believe traditional woodworking routers are a satisfactory long term proposition for use as a spindle in a cnc, used in any environment that exceeded a few hours use a week. I know for my machines they can run for days each week. Imagine if when building my machine I had a my trusty Hitachi TR12 handy, and used that instead of springing for a decent spindle. In a suburban setting the noise from that would bring the council down on me fairly swiftly regarding complaints. Forever making me a target.

Then there's the obvious power usage and all-round general inefficiency of the router, one's like the Festo's and Elu's are a step above and are very well designed, but they are still in the end a grunt machine, designed to simply throw more than enough power to get the job done, no matter how innefficient that might be.

I'm simply amazed at the power, speed, accuracy, complete lack of heat, and the absolute quiet of the spindles available, I certainly won't use anything else in general for most of the work anyway.

With the fans in the air cooled spindles, I'm yet to see a fan that hasn't clogged with contaminints after a period, usually inversely proportional to the value of the device it's cooling. While this often isn't fatal, the thing to worry about is how well does it cope with getting gunk on the fan asembly. What i've seen around the forums on sites is that some users have had the fans gum up, and fail. This could depend on the level of dust extraction, cheap quality fans, I don't know, but while it's a subjective and personal decision whether to go air or water cooled, for myself anyway I will only get water cooled. Anything that reduces the likelihood of problems is good in my books.

For me it's all about ensuring that something that I really enjoy doing, is something I can do anytime and not impact on others, and also do as cleanly, efficiently, and cost-effective as possible. Going from routers to spindles allows me part of that overall choice at what I would consider a more than reasonable cost. On ebay I can get a good quality VFD and 1.5kW spindle for about $300-$400, I would consider this very good value for the benefits it offers.

But horses for courses, that's just my own experience and opinion, so other peoples requirements or wants will be different no doubt.

cheers,
Ian

[adprinter]

Hey Adprinter...

Thanks for sharing... Would you have a link to your build... Especially any photos? I'd like to see your machine and the setup as far as Z axis extents and such... Sounds like it was bit of a major overhaul of your machine to get the 4th axis involved...
Cheers for posting too...

Please see my post under Build Thread MyCNC Build. For the PDF file.
or go to My CNC build
to view it on the MachSupport forum.

[ger21]

I'm going to disagree with most of what you're saying.

On ebay I can get a good quality VFD and 1.5kW spindle for about $300-$400, I would consider this very good value for the benefits it offers.

Two major problems with that.
1) The general consensus here is that the Chinese VFD's are garbage, and a $200-$250 Hitachi is the VFD of choice. That still gets you a spindle +VFD just a little over $400, though.
2) The collet size of the 1.5kw spindles won't accept 1/2" tools. That's the real deal breaker for me.

but you still have the serious problems of spindle runout

Unless you get a bad one, runout is a non issue with a good quality router (Bosch, PC or Makita) Reasonable priced precision collets are available for them too.

massive air being fan forced from below and above the router, this means your dust collection needs to be oversized to allow

Not oversized, just the right size to start with. The amount of suction needed for proper dust collection is more than enough to overcome a cooling fan. If it can't, you won't get proper dust collection even with a water cooled spindle.

I've yet to see any hobbiests especially, or tradies, or builders, I know of anyway, that have ever had a truly great system, that didn't let at least smallish amounts continuously bypass some part of the extraction system either through a combination of design, placement, or power scaling.

I'm not really sure why this is. It's not rocket science.
Granted, there are situations where you just can't collect the dust. We'll ignore those here.

Basically, all you need to do to contain the dust is wrap a brush around the cutting area to keep the dust and chips from flying away form the source of suction. If you're brush forms a seal with the table or workpiece, then you won't have any airborne dust. It's that simple.
Of course, you'll also need to use a proper dust collector with a 4" hose.
I've been saying this over and over here. Do these things, and you won't have dust.
Yet, everyone wants to reinvent the wheel.

With the fans in the air cooled spindles, I'm yet to see a fan that hasn't clogged with contaminints after a period

I've never seen one clogged in my 25+ years of woodworking. I'll claim that it all goes back to dust collection.
And fwiw, for 12 years I used two 10HP HSD spindles that were fan cooled, but with electric fans. No dust problems there either. But we had good dust collection

In a suburban setting the noise from that would bring the council down on me fairly swiftly regarding complaints.

Most good quality variable speed routers are not too loud at all when used under 15,000 rpm. 95% of my cutting is done at 15,000 or lower. Even cutting at 1000ipm with a 15HP spindle, we don't exceed 16,000 rpm.

The downside of using a VS router at low speeds, is a lack of power.
We get around that by using a SuperPID. The SuperPID kills a whole flock of birds with one stone.

More power at lower rpm's.
Lower rpm's than stock.
Cooler running.

I've run my router for 8 hours straight, and it was cool to the touch.

The downside of the SuperPID, is the cost.
It get's you very close to the cost of a 1.5KW spindle.

But, when you need to get a larger collet, and hence a 2.2Kw spindle, the cost factor points back to the router.

Here's where I'll agree with you.
A Chinese spindle will have more power, be quieter, and it should last longer and have less runout. (although I've seen cases of unacceptable runout and spindles that lasted a month or less ).

A spindle is generally a better choice than a router.

It just all comes down to cost. At half the price or less, a good router can give great service for years for a lot of users. When the end result is the same, it can be hard to justify the additional cost.

[Eddymeister]

Hey fellas

I think when it comes down to money... For me its the right tool for the right job... Spend the money once and be done with it... I'd rather over engineer things then have constant problems or limiting the machines abilities or even worse having to keep throwing money at it...

I think when it comes to spindles the cost of these can be offset by their size too... In my design,the narrower I can make the Y and Z Axis carriages the smaller and more compact the machine will be... This also reduces the length of guide rails required as I don't loose as much because of these widths...
Being only 100mm in diameter would essentially, in my design, reduce the number of Bearing Blocks required on the Y axis too... I'd only have to go for a long type bearing block... This would essentially save about 100 - 150 odd dollars... This saving could then be passed onto a Hitachi VFD and A 2.2kW spindle with an ER20 Collet...

I'm with you on the 1/2" deal breaker Gerry... I rarely work with 1/4" Tooling and have always felt they are more likely to break in my line of work... I'm a tradesman and I look for Durability in everything I purchase... Even my power saws for finishing work are 2Hp or more... Over kill I know but these saws are 10 years old and are just as good as the day I bought them...

I'm looking at PMDX's 107 Speed controller which go for $50 as opposed to the Super PID's $155 price tag... I was going to use a Super PID in conjunction with the 107 but I may as well spend the money on a spindle and VFD... Although I really like the Super PID's simple intergration...

I suppose the real question is what size would be the one for me... Personally I'm thinking a minimum 2.2kw, which I believe is 3Hp or close to, would be the one for myself...

I've gone back and forth in my mind to see which is the best approach...The budget may need to stretch a little further initially with a hope of it being a saving in the long run...

I can see both sides of the argument though... I might just sit down and do a costing on both... Essentially a Router will equal a bigger machine but are readily available and cheaper... A spindle will reduce the machines footprint and optimize the cutting capacity of my design but its outlay maybe higher but "should" last longer...
:drowning:
Arrgggg..! - Ian...
Thanks for the link to the Cyclone dust extraction... I'm surprised at its simplicity... Especially with the variants that are about... I might look into utilizing an old dust extractor that I have in my shop that has never really impressed me on my larger machines... I could probably strip this thing down and combine it along with the Cyclone cylinder with ease...

I think I'd rather a quiet machine... I don't know about you but I could watch an CNC machine for hours... Its mesmerizing... I'd rather sit and have a stubby with a mate as we watched it go round and still be able to have a conversation...:cheers:

I think the neighbors would appreciate it too...
I'll do up a parts list and some pics of what I'm settling on at the moment so you can all see what I'm banging on about...

Keep the comments coming...
Cheers

[Eddymeister]

Hey Gerry...

Would you know of a link to a supplier on those Hitachi VFD's... I've done a search on Ebay... But no luck...
I know of Hitachi and would rather go with a known brand than a random one...

Cheers

[ger21]

Most people buy them from here:
http://www.driveswarehouse.com/?gcli...Fcis7Qodv34a7g

I think I'd rather a quiet machine... I don't know about you but I could watch an CNC machine for hours... Its mesmerizing... I'd rather sit and have a stubby with a mate as we watched it go round and still be able to have a conversation..

Actual cutting noise is usually much larger than any noise from the spindle, so the noise argument doesn't really work for me.

Essentially a Router will equal a bigger machine........

I don't think there's a big enough size difference to warrant a redesign of the machine.
A Porter Cable router is 88.9mm, while a 2.2Kw is 80mm diameter. Almost the same.

[Eddymeister]

Hey Gerry...

Unfortunately in Australia, most routers are a plunge type... There have quite a large base and handles making them quite cumbersome in size... My 2.5Hp Bosch Router is about 250-275mm wide so there is quite a difference... So this will ultimately increase the rails by about 150mm each rail plus bearing blocks... And we all know how much they cost...

There's quite a lot of us here in the Aussie Land forums that seem to come across this anomaly in routers that are available here...
There are some that have purchased a US version router and a transformer plus postage and waited 2 odd weeks to get their spindle too... After all that cost and waiting I'd probably loose it wanting to make some saw dust... And knowing my luck somewhere down the track I might have to get a part or even replace it... If I go the way of a router I'd rather just go with what's available locally...

The same could be said about purchasing from China but they are closer to us and freight is cheaper most of the time...

I think I'll build the machine to suit a spindle but start off with a router (seeing as I already own 3) and just deal with the loss in cutting capacity till I save the pennies for a spindle...
Thanks for the link tho mate... I'll definitely check it out...
Is there anything that I should keep my eyes open for in the way of specs for these things?
Again... Thanks for the comments and knowledge