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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    379

    Diy ATC With the Tormach control

    I know ATC has been discussed before, but I im scoping out the possibilities of DIY ATC. I am sure there are legitimate reasons for the $4200 price tag, but If you just consider the cost of materials, It can't be that high ( around a $1000). I mean it pretty much looks like Igus Drylin slides, an air cylinder, a stepper motor, and a fairly simple mechanism. Controlling it would be the most complicated part to me but now that Tormach has control for ATC, it seems like it could be a fairly easy thing to do considering you have a CNC mill to machine all the parts. Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063
    Quote Originally Posted by LazyMan View Post
    I know ATC has been discussed before, but I im scoping out the possibilities of DIY ATC. I am sure there are legitimate reasons for the $4200 price tag, but If you just consider the cost of materials, It can't be that high ( around a $1000). I mean it pretty much looks like Igus Drylin slides, an air cylinder, a stepper motor, and a fairly simple mechanism. Controlling it would be the most complicated part to me but now that Tormach has control for ATC, it seems like it could be a fairly easy thing to do considering you have a CNC mill to machine all the parts. Any thoughts?
    The engineering, development, and prototype costs also have to be recovered if you hope to make a profit. Not to mention the cost of support and marketing.

    DIY-ers don't have to worry about such things unless they are also trying to make a profit or value their time at much more than $0.50 per hour.

    Mike

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    986

    The Equation

    Toolchanger cost = C
    Amount of money you earn per hour = M
    Time to design, build, install and debug your own toolchanger = Tdiy
    Cost of self-made tool changer = $1000

    If Tdiy * M + $1000 < C, then build your own.

    Once you determine that you need a tool changer, I think that you'll find that the TTC is a hell of a good deal.

    Frederic

  4. #4

    DIY ATC

    Well if you need an ATC then I doubt you have time to make one, if you have time to make one then you probably don't need one.
    Sorry but the reason for the ATC is to improve productivity and there is no way I would have bought one if I wasn't busy building parts with no time to figure out how to build one let alone the design time.
    RAD. Yes those are my initials. Idea, design, build, use. It never ends.
    PCNC1100 Series II, w/S3 upgrade, PDB, ATC & 4th's, PCNC1100 Series II, 4th

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1195
    LazyMan,
    I think it's better just do it whether you need it or not, busy or not. Its because if you succeed, many diy to follow. Many people need it, but can not afford one.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    458
    Hey LazyMan:

    There's not a forum in existence in any language where you can post something like this and not be met with the type of replies you've received so far. Most based on assumptions without really knowing the details of your particular circumstances.

    When I order my first Tormach I know I won't have enough in my budget to afford an ATC. This creates a situation where I'll either have to make one myself or do without.

    Unless I win the lottery or a rich relative dies and leaves me a wad of cash, I'm not likely to shell out an additional 4K for an ATC.

    In my wonderings about how I might make my own ATC I've considered an already built robotic-arm; then all I'd have to do is make a small tool tray for it to hold and program it to move into the various positions to swap out my various tools triggered by a fourth or fifth axis connection.

    This is easier said than done I'm sure but, it's just one of many ways to go about making a working tool changer without having to pay the 4K plus shipping.

    I wish you all the good fortune in the world with your ATC build. I hope you won't let alot of potentially intimidating and Not-So-Positive replies keep you from showing the rest of us any progress you make.

    I plan to tackle this ATC thing after my machine arrives. You might be able to save me alot of effort in re-inventing that wheel if you come up with a working alternative to shelling out thousands more; as apposed to hundreds for a DIY ATC.

    MetalShavings

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    379
    Hey LazyMan:

    There's not a forum in existence in any language where you can post something like this and not be met with the type of replies you've received so far. Most based on assumptions without really knowing the details of your particular circumstances.
    Hehe, those were my thoughts exactly. I understand what they are were trying to say though and I myself have occasionally maade those assumptions so I am not too surprised. I am planning on ordering a Tormach in a few months and would like ATC and would like to reduce my investment. I have built decent 3 axis CNC router (ball screws, supported linear rails) for quite a bit cheaper than the Tormach ATC including 3 gecko drives and miscellaneous electronics so material wise it cant be too expensive to do. Either way, I think It would be a fun project and certainly worth pursuing.

    This is my inspiration for the moment, but I would probably Just use pneumatics for the transverse movement just like the tormach one.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw5HiP8JLN0&feature=related"]&#x202a;ATC 3 First Tool Change&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    379
    Hmm,

    I just found this one ATC Cycle test on a Tormach Mill

    It all looks very straight forward mechanically.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    595
    I think you should go for it... However, owning the ATC, I think you are grossly over simplifying Tormach's implementation if it.

    When installing, configuring and using the unit, I thought several times, how I can see why they charge what they do, and while it looks simple, the design is very complicated.

    Not saying you cant get it done, just saying chances are its going to be much more work than you think it is.

    David

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    379
    I think you should go for it... However, owning the ATC, I think you are grossly over simplifying Tormach's implementation if it.

    When installing, configuring and using the unit, I thought several times, how I can see why they charge what they do, and while it looks simple, the design is very complicated.

    Not saying you cant get it done, just saying chances are its going to be much more work than you think it is.
    You are probably right, When I say its straight forward I am only referring to the mechanical aspect. I am lost at the control, but if I can purchase the Tormach ATC software plugin, or whatever it is separately for a reasonable price I will be in business.

    Anyways, its all day dreaming for the moment. I Have to get the machine first.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1602
    A simple wine rack on the end of the bed can go a long way to meeting one's tool changer needs. While this won't be suitable for all jobs, it would work well for a job that needs just a few tools and doesn't use the full table travel.

    bob

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1072
    Quote Originally Posted by LazyMan View Post
    I am lost at the control, but if I can purchase the Tormach ATC software plugin, or whatever it is separately for a reasonable price I will be in business.
    You'd need to find out if the Tormach plugin controls the toolchanger "axes" directly, or if the Tormach just says "fetch me tool 6" and the toolchanger has a microcontroller built in to do the fetching...

    Randy

  13. #13

    ATC

    I do admit my response was not encouraging, but what you are contemplating is a huge time consuming undertaking. I know many Tormach owners just use their machines for little projects and to build cool stuff for their mill and that can continue on forever. After having the Tormach ATC as long as anyone else here I know there is a great deal of logic programming in the ATC, it knows what it's supposed to do better than I do. I too eyed the unit you have shown a link for. Carry on. Enjoy your Tormach. Post pics of your ATC as you go.
    RAD. Yes those are my initials. Idea, design, build, use. It never ends.
    PCNC1100 Series II, w/S3 upgrade, PDB, ATC & 4th's, PCNC1100 Series II, 4th

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    986
    I was also not trying to put anyone down with my post. But I do think that the original poster is underestimating the amount of work involved in making an ATC work well on the Tormach.

    I've had the pleasure to walk through Z-Bot's production facility and see the original prototype tool changer. It's a little different looking from the production changers, but it works perfectly. In fact, it's on the Tormach mill that is used to make all the other tool changers! I believe that they said that they have over 10,000 tool changes on it.

    They wanted to show it off, and so I got to see the various features and safeties built into it. It has sensors to detect failed tool changes, incomplete motion, etc. As for how it integrates to the Tormach, my understanding is that it is a USB accessory. So there's some circuit board logic, and some software that integrates with Mach. Drawbar control is accomplished by the ATC connection on the power drawbar's circuit board.

    Building an ATC would be relatively easy compared to the challenge of writing code and designing electronics to make it work seamlessly with Mach. I suspect that it would involve hundreds of hours. I would rather just put in overtime at work and save up for the Tormach ATC. It would take less time overall, and in the end you'd have a product that has been extensively tested and is well supported.

    That's my point, and I didn't mean to put anyone down or tell them that they cannot do something.

    Sincerely,
    Frederic

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    595
    TXFred, personally, I didnt think you sounded even remotely close to putting anybody down with your original post.

    David

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2512
    Don't forget the Power Drawbar.

    The best indication of the difficulty related to building your own ATC is to do a search for how many people have planned to build one and how many have actually succeeded.

    Phil

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    487
    Quote Originally Posted by LazyMan View Post
    Hmm,

    I just found this one ATC Cycle test on a Tormach Mill

    It all looks very straight forward mechanically.
    That was a prototype I did, and I say go for it. I kept my entire cost (and that included the Power draw bar under 3k. The programming and safety stuff is NOT hard. I ran mine with an Automation Direct DL06 PLC, that Mach 3 controlled over TCP/IP modbus, and I ran a VB M6 script. It is easy to program in limits, safeties, tool detection ect. My Power Draw bar, needed stronger Belviels and a dual stack air cylinder for the draw bar, since I was asked that mine had to hold a 1/2" roughing endmill cutting through a 1" thick piece of AL in a single pass. To do that would have required stronger R-8 holding power.

    I had several months of time from design to finished product, working on it between jobs.

    Don't let "Plug-ins" intimidate you either they are not that hard to do (IF you learn C++/MFC). But any tool changer can be done in a M6Start.m1s macro.

    For me, If I had the time, and/or money to do it over again, I would maybe have done a Double stack draw bar, and maybe a slide caracell verses a swing arm (like Fadal does).

    The key thing is this: This is a DIY website, you have a CNC machine, the imagination, intelligence, the desire to do/learn, the time/money then go-for-it. If you have control questions (for Mach3), check out the www.MachSupport.com forum.

    But, DON'T let a bunch of Nay-Sayer's stop you. It's your time and your money.

    Also, if you want, email me off list, and I will send you the CAD Plans, BOM, screen sets, M6 macro, PLC program, wiring prints, etc. for a small fee.

    you can then modify it for how YOU want it to work, since the programming will work for a 12 position ATC and Drawbar. (see video you referenced for proof of that).

    Scott
    Commercial Mach3: Screens, Wizards, Plugins, Brains,PLCs, Macros, ATC's, machine design/build, retrofit, EMC2, Prototyping. http://sites.google.com/site/volunteerfablab/

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    595
    [quoteThe programming and safety stuff is NOT hard. I ran mine with an Automation Direct DL06 PLC, that Mach 3 controlled over TCP/IP modbus, and I ran a VB M6 script.

    ... Don't let "Plug-ins" intimidate you either they are not that hard to do (IF you learn C++/MFC). But any tool changer can be done in a M6Start.m1s macro.
    [/quote]

    I suppose if one was comfortable with/trained on what you just said, it wouldnt be hard

    There are a number of things that are not hard for me, but would be for someone else, and visa versa.

    I think calling folks nay-sayers for trying to give the guy a dose of reality... is a bit agressive. You say its easy, no problem... maybe for you, but I think the fact that very few actually pull it off speaks to the truth for most folks.

    Lazyman, as I stated in my post, go for it, and tell us how you make out. It may be a piece of cake for you.

    Im more comfortable spending a bit more on a sure thing than risk the time and $. Then again, I dont spend much time in Vegas either

    David

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063
    I think calling folks nay-sayers for trying to give the guy a dose of reality... is a bit agressive. You say its easy, no problem... maybe for you, but I think the fact that very few actually pull it off speaks to the truth for most folks.
    I agree. If one is going to do a project as complex as designing and fabricating an ATC, it's important to be aware of the pitfalls and think through the matter.

    It will be interesting to see whether or not the OP makes it all the way through the process.

    For PoppaBear - are you still using your ATC?

    Mike

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    290
    Quote Originally Posted by The key thing is this: This is a DIY website, you have a CNC machine, the imagination, intelligence, the desire to do/learn, the time/money then go-for-it. If you have control questions (for Mach3), check out the [url=http://www.MachSupport.com
    ArtSoft USA - Home of Mach3 and LazyCam[/url] forum.


    Scott
    I think that statement says it all

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