[Wog]

Tormach introduces a new Series 3 PCNC 1100

PCNC 1100 Series 3 now for sale « Milling Around

Makes my 2006 machine seem old!

[philbur]

Looks like a bit more rapid speed for $1,000. They've spent the last 5 1/2 years convincing me that my 60 ipm was all I needed.

Phil

Edit: The really cleaver engineering would have been to keep the current spec and drop the price by $1,000. You don't put a PC(NC) on every desk by upping the price.

[benji2505]

Well, you have to adjust prices every once in a while. With the Dollar taking a dive into the abyss, the margins are being squeezed for imports. I can fully understand that move and it makes sense to label it as a new series (with all the new developments ).

[saabaero]

Not sure how much of the price increase is due to the new motors and how much to cost increases but $1000.00 is a substantial jump in price and I believe it will affect a lot of peoples decision in buying a machine. If most of it was due to the motors it may have been better to increase the machine price slightly to cover cost increases and then offer the motors as an option.

I for one would hope Tormach is working on offering a higher quality machine to their line-up to bridge the gap between the PCNC 1100 and a professional quality machine such as the Haas. A machine with servos, longer travels, higher horsepower spindle, ball bearing slides, positive locking (industry standard) tool holders, and a full enclosure. I believe with using Asian components and labor and inexpensive control software such as MACH 3 that could be possible. As an option, a low to mid priced trunnion table for 5 axis would make the machine unbeatable.

With a machine such as that I believe there would be a lot more Tormachs in start-up CNC machine shops. The PCNC 1100 (while a great machine) is still too much on the hobbyist level for serious applications.

[philbur]

The overriding, stated philosophy behind the PCNC was that it would have a low enough price tag that a person could have his own CNC milling machine standing by for just when he needed it. Hence the use of the "P" in PCNC, it stands for personal. Just like the "P" in PC. I guess the though was if you needed a production machine then you would be well advised to buy a HAAS. The target customer for the PCNC was never intended to be CNC machine shops, startup or otherwise.

Phil

I for one would hope Tormach is working on offering a higher quality machine to their line-up to bridge the gap between the PCNC 1100 and a professional quality machine such as the Haas. A machine with servos, longer travels, higher horsepower spindle, ball bearing slides, positive locking (industry standard) tool holders, and a full enclosure. I believe with using Asian components and labor and inexpensive control software such as MACH 3 that could be possible. As an option, a low to mid priced trunnion table for 5 axis would make the machine unbeatable.

With a machine such as that I believe there would be a lot more Tormachs in start-up CNC machine shops. The PCNC 1100 (while a great machine) is still too much on the hobbyist level for serious applications.

[saabaero]

I'm not saying that they should stop making "P" "Personal" machines but they are a growing company and there is still a large gap to be filled between personal (< $10,000) and industrial (>$50,000) machines. Therefore, the "P" could also be adapted to mean "Professional".

[RTP_Burnsville]

I am going to agree with what Saabaero has posted. Tormach pretty much rules the high end hobby market from what I can see. They need to be careful not to price themselves out of that market. I know the dollar is not worth crap (thanks Washington) but even so there is a limit to what most guys can fork out for what mostly is a hobby.

A machine what Saabaero has listed is what I was searching for when purchasing the Tormach a few years back. I really wanted something like a smallish RoboDrill, mini-mill, etc. but the price of playing in that market was just a bit more than I could find in my piggy bank ($50k). There is nothing in that magic $20K market area and I still believe there really should be. Tormach is a nice machine but it is not a production level machine.

The new motors are still steppers with open loop control from what I gathered reading the announcement. While they might be a bit smoother in operation I doubt anyone will see any true performance increase with the current Tormach design.

Robert

[bobeson]

I wonder when the intersection of Chinese inflation and US deflation will permit domestic production of Tormach machines. When the PCNC was born, offshoring still carried a powerfull economic incentive. As that margin decreases, at some point domestic production will make sense again. The question of a suitably-priced casting supplier would seem one of the larger barriers, but surely there is some struggling or startup casting house located on the mainland that could make it work somehow, given the proven volumes of Tormach machines. With careful and extensive automation design for finishing operations, I'd be surprised if Tormach couldn't figure out a way to bring nearly all of their production to the USA for a cost similar to what they are facing now, and surely for the kind of costs they will be facing in another two years as China continues to evolve. Once production is domestic, I'll bet they could stabilize the price for much longer than they can with Chinese suppliers.

[RTP_Burnsville]

One of the big hurdles to manufacturing in the US is the government regulations on such things as energy use, casting and processes considered 'dirty' by the environmental nuts. Several local manufactures which had solid businesses have given up and closed their doors due to all the new regulations. Manufacturing will not return to this country until the people of this country wake up and demand some common sense to government and regulation.

Agreed, the rush to send everything to China is going to turn very interesting in the next couple years.

Robert

[philbur]

It will happen when it's cheaper, which is when the average Chinese worker's living standard is the same as the average American worker's, or more worryingly, visa versa.

Phil

I wonder when the intersection of Chinese inflation and US deflation will permit domestic production of Tormach machines. When the PCNC was born, offshoring still carried a powerfull economic incentive. As that margin decreases, at some point domestic production will make sense again. The question of a suitably-priced casting supplier would seem one of the larger barriers, but surely there is some struggling or startup casting house located on the mainland that could make it work somehow, given the proven volumes of Tormach machines. With careful and extensive automation design for finishing operations, I'd be surprised if Tormach couldn't figure out a way to bring nearly all of their production to the USA for a cost similar to what they are facing now, and surely for the kind of costs they will be facing in another two years as China continues to evolve. Once production is domestic, I'll bet they could stabilize the price for much longer than they can with Chinese suppliers.

[Don Clement]

One of the big hurdles to manufacturing in the US is the government regulations on such things as energy use, casting and processes considered 'dirty' by the environmental nuts. Several local manufactures which had solid businesses have given up and closed their doors due to all the new regulations. Manufacturing will not return to this country until the people of this country wake up and demand some common sense to government and regulation.

Agreed, the rush to send everything to China is going to turn very interesting in the next couple years.

Robert

What a load of BS.

[bevinp]

[QUOTE ..... I know the dollar is not worth crap (thanks Washington) but ..... [/QUOTE]

The problem with the defalted US dollar was caused by the banks... the greedy, overpaid, self-centered directors and senior managers, motivated by obscene bonuses. You remember, the ones who were bailed out by the US taxpayers, and are once again listing profits while small businesses are struggling. You can't blame Washington for the GFC and its continuing aftermath worldwide.

[bogiestl]

I'm thinking that the next step up could be fairly simple (all things considered...). Bump the spindle up to about 3-5hp, and add some more mass to the vertical column, etc... Make it a little wider/deeper. Use servos, and build in the power drawbar... You'd add a small amount more floor space, along with a bit more height. Think about 2,000 pounds...

[concombrefrais]

When the dollars is worth less, so is our debt. Their is always a bright side!

[QUOTE ..... I know the dollar is not worth crap (thanks Washington) but .....

The problem with the defalted US dollar was caused by the banks... the greedy, overpaid, self-centered directors and senior managers, motivated by obscene bonuses. You remember, the ones who were bailed out by the US taxpayers, and are once again listing profits while small businesses are struggling. You can't blame Washington for the GFC and its continuing aftermath worldwide.[/QUOTE]

[RTP_Burnsville]

What a load of BS.

I see you have offered such great words of wisdom to the conversation.... Thanks for reinforcing one of my points.

Robert

[Don Clement]

I see you have offered such great words of wisdom to the conversation.... Thanks for reinforcing one of my points.

Robert

Where were your facts to back your assertion that regulation has lead to the decline of manufacturing? Ask the Icelanders how eliminating regulations has worked for them.

"Pollution is nothing but resources we're not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value. But if we got onto a planning planning basis, the government could trap pollutants in the stacks and spillages and get back more money than this would cost out of the stockpiled chemistries they'd be collecting." ~ Buckminster Fuller

[tikka308]

Tormach won't materially increase the weight of the unit because any more weight precludes the use of a standard lift-gate for delivery.

As for the criticism of the price increase... Tormach has always been a great value. They, like all of us, live in an inflationary world. Ironically, it seems like steppers have been the #1 dig against the PCNC (aside from travel - but who doesn't want more travel). So now Tormach implements an improved motion system... and people complain? My question for you: What's your next best option? As far as I can tell: nothing. If Tormach's price increase means they are rolling in profit margin, then expect some new competitors. But I don't think you'll see any.

[philbur]

I thought the series 3 was still using steppers, so no plus points there then.

Why are steppers the #1 dig and how has the improved system addressed that dig?

Don't get me wrong I love my series 1, but I don't consider it to be above critical comment.

Phil

Ironically, it seems like steppers have been the #1 dig against the PCNC .......... So now Tormach implements an improved motion system... and people complain?

[benji2505]

[QUOTE=concombrefrais;984717]When the dollars is worth less, so is our debt. Their is always a bright side!


well, I am not so sure about that... If you live in the Dollar zone, the face value stays 1:1, no exchange rate effect for the ones that pay for the debt(like you and me). So the likely future looks like you pay higher taxes (my bet: consumption tax named VAT) and you pay more for all the imports, which is basically everything of daily use (try to find something American at Wal-Mart).

Concerning re-shoring the production of the Tormach: I am absolutely sure that there is nfw that this is feasible. If you sell a machine for 8k you must make at least 4k contribution margin 1 (price minus components and direct labor) per machine to get this going. For 4K you would not be able to produce the control, not to speak about the machine itself. The living standard/paylevel in China makes the Tormach experience possible, if it was 1:1 there was no PCNC. Tormach's value added is the quality control, the engineering and the local service. But that's nothing groundbreaking, you see this everywhere now.

[bobeson]

Concerning re-shoring the production of the Tormach: I am absolutely sure that there is nfw that this is feasible. If you sell a machine for 8k you must make at least 4k contribution margin 1 (price minus components and direct labor) per machine to get this going. For 4K you would not be able to produce the control, not to speak about the machine itself. The living standard/paylevel in China makes the Tormach experience possible, if it was 1:1 there was no PCNC. Tormach's value added is the quality control, the engineering and the local service. But that's nothing groundbreaking, you see this everywhere now.

There are no laws that I'm aware of that require a 50% markup on production costs in order to make money. In fact, plenty of businesses get by for much less margin, particularly when the initial purchase leads to further captive revenue at higher margins (accessories, etc). It seems to me that on an $8.5K machine sales price, they may well be able to sustain $6.5K+ production costs if ancillary sales margin picks up the slack.

How can you be "absolutely sure that there is nfw" to make a viable PCNC machine domestically? Have you been keeping up with the situation in China, in particular with wage inflation and widespread demands for better working conditions, currency valuation changes, etc. ? Shipping costs aren't getting any cheaper either. The dollar has been purposefully devalued in the last few years, and will likely continue to be devalued in order to assist domestic exports and better compete with China's overly-and-artificially-devalued currency. It seems to me that you are basing your economic assumptions on historical precedents which are rapidly changing.

I firmly believe, (admittedly with insufficient expertise to authoritatively state) that if somebody can convince the right beaurocrats to allow it, a domestic foundry could be designed and automated sufficiently to produce castings at a cost competetive with the Chinese foundries, when all costs of business are factored in (shipping, import logistics, international business travel costs, etc). You can blame environmental regulations on making this equation difficult, but with the right people on your side, there is nothing fundamental about the iron foundry business that precludes domestic casting altogether. From my perspective, it's all a matter of political willpower, and the political winds are shifting back to a whole lotta talk of restoring domestic industrial capacity. Now to see if we can get the talk to translate to real action and real jobs...