[Gundawg]

I am looking for a small Machine Center to make some aluminum parts that I am now outsourcing to another shop. I also want to do prototyping of new parts. I currently have a ShopBot CNC router so I have a little CNC experience but I am no expert by far. I have been running the router table for about 4 years.

I have looked at the Tormach but I like this machine by David Decaussin I have talked to David but I am not sure the questions I need to be asking. I would love to have a larger machine center but my shop is full and I do not have the space for a larger machine or the budget or the electrical service requirements for a large machine my shop service is 100 Amps and I have other machines running. I do not have time for a retorfit of an old machine. I need to make chips and $$ with this machine it is not a hobby. Here is a video of David's machine.

I currently own Aspire by Vetric and that will be my Cad program.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-y03hhCCME]UMC 10: Scratch Built CNC with Automatic Tool Changer - YouTube[/ame]

Thanks for any advice you may have.

Mike

[Ed from NY]

I would seriously consider a small VMC. You can run a phase perfect to supply 30amps with a 60amp input from single phase.

However, if you keep within the limitations you have chosen, and if David's machine is within your budget, I would tell him exactly what my ambitions were and ask for him to layout the machine limitations. From what I remember of the video he runs the machine fairly conservativelly. May be that is the way he does things, may be it is a function of the modified R8 taper, not sure. I do like his machine, at least in the videos, much better than the tormach, but it probably is 2x the money.

[Ed from NY]

I take that back. I watched a couple of sections of the video again and his machine seems much more capable than what I recalled. I guess I just remember it wrong

[Gundawg]

Thanks for the feedback Ed. I was hoping for a few more opinions. For the record the money for the Tormach & the UMC-10 is about the same. I think the UMC-10 is a much better machine. What worries me is not having the same level of tech support and an internet forum user group to help with any issues. I need to have more talks with David.

A friend of my folks has run a high tech machine shop making medical instruments for years and he advises what ever I buy it needs to have good tech support and part availability these are good points so I need to do more homework. I read about customers getting really good service from Tormach so that is a plus for them. The UMC-10 is American made but a relatively new machine my gut tells me it is a good machine but being a relative newb I need a good support network.

I have a few months to decide so maybe I will get more feedback.

Thanks Mike

[Ed from NY]

For the same money I would go with the UMC-10 hands down no doubt about it. I do not think you need a dedicated support forum as most questions you will have are not about the machine, but about how to make stuff, or about the software. Flashcut is not exclusive to the UMC-10 CNC Control Software | Flashcut CNC . With the mechanical pieces if bad comes to worse you can buy replacements, make them yourself, of have them made. The big question is the electronics, but even those can be gutted out and replaced.

[mactec54]

Gundawg

This is a cool little machine, & that is about it,you can't just go buy tooling for it,That has been custom made by David,This would be a problem when you need tooling, The control also has some custom work, it is not the standard Flash cut control, If you want to do production machining you will need at the least something like a Haas Toolroom mill or there Mini mill or some other brand around the same size, You could run this size machine with your 120v/240v single phase power with no problems

[LUCKY13]

I think David can supply extremely good support. I agree Tormachs track record stands for itself and I could not tell anyone not to buy one of there machines if it fits the bill. THey are there, and will be and they stand behind there product, and it is a good one that does what is claimed.


But Davids track record is extremely good also even though all this is fairly new machines and company. His machine will totally outwork the Tormach in many ways. Its performance and abilities will stand out beyound a hobby based machine. If any kinda production is needed IMHO its no compairison. Again the Tormach is a great buy. But it is what it is, a good quality hobby machine that can handle some light production work ( all though with time, which a hobby or small one off production needs can take).


The tooling I dont think is totally its own thing. You can get a tooling setup pretty much just like this, if not exactly like it through Enco called Royal Products.
Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Measuring Tools, Cutting Tools and Shop Supplies


His spindal may be made to except it dirrectly, or not, I am not sure but it appears to be the exact same taper setup ( may need a diff pull stud, may not). Interesting thing is it claims to give 100% holding which I was surprized of. It may be different, it should be looked into close to make sure, but I think its the same setup. Atleast the collets appear they would work.


Even if it is his own and tooling holders would have ot be bought from him only thats not bad, unless normal tooling is already in hand and will be wasted. Even then collets are something I find you cant have enough of, tapper types and bit holding size. More machines will be bought in time more than likely and R8 is so popular that a machine that uses them, or someone buying them will come along in time.


Davids setup are more geared toward production, even though afforable. He knows what he is doing and he is a great designer with more back ground and expeirance than most companies complete grew put together. I dont have anything to do with his company, but if I could afford it I would have one of his machines setting here. Of course I would not mind having a Tormach setting right beside it but I would not expect it to keep up with his machine.

As far as parts for the machines they each would have to come from the company that made them. EVen the tooling system for the Tormach, all though they can be bought at several places now.

There is not to many new company/machines I would have faith in if my needs where as yours. But Davids is one that I do and I wish I had one of his setups here right now. For now I can only hope to get the funds needed to finish my RF-45 conversion which is going into its third year because of several reasons. I would have loved to just had one of his setups so I could have hit the road running so to speak (with great results I might add).

Anyway using the time you do have to research and compair your needs to what you get is something you should take your time with. The more you know and understand the better off you will be when it comes time to make the choice. The tooling I bet David would look into seeing if the collets I linked to would work with his machine. Or exact specs may be had so you can tell yourself. Royal has very high quality products so if they work they are very good. A nice setup for any R8 machine out there if anyone is wanting a quick chnage setup. I will get a set if the funds ever work out, changing tools on my machine is a pain for me but I have dissabilities which makes it harder for me.


Good Luck, Jess

[mactec54]

LUCKY13

The tooling for Davids machine is totally custom, for his spindle, so you can not fit anything but his tooling, This machine is a great small machine & way ahead of a Tormach machine in every way, But is very limited to the size of piece you can cut total travel X & Y will be the problem for most at 14"x8", But for doing small parts there is not much that could match this machine

[skullworks]

I'm betting David could whip out a BT 30 version if the need was there.

[PixMan]

For what you're doing, and if it's a long-term money maker, it's time to take the cost out of the part. Look at the speed and compactness of a Robodrill T14i or similar model "phonebooth" machine. They are available with up to 40,000 rpm spindles (more commonly 10K to 12K), run BT30 tooling, and are FAST.

The machine nicknamed "phonebooth" because its about that size.

ROBODRILL - Product - FANUC

Another candidate is the Brother TC machines.

TC-324 | CNC Drilling & Tapping| KDCapital

[Gundawg]

That would be a great machine but at a different price point than what I have to spend in my small home shop business. I am looking for something around the $15K mark maybe stretch to $20K.

Mike

For what you're doing, and if it's a long-term money maker, it's time to take the cost out of the part. Look at the speed and compactness of a Robodrill T14i or similar model "phonebooth" machine. They are available with up to 40,000 rpm spindles (more commonly 10K to 12K), run BT30 tooling, and are FAST.

The machine nicknamed "phonebooth" because its about that size.

ROBODRILL - Product - FANUC

Another candidate is the Brother TC machines.

TC-324 | CNC Drilling & Tapping| KDCapital

[PixMan]

I knew it would strike you as expensive, and that's why I suggested it's time to "cost out the part". What I mean by that is look at how many you now make, or should I say, have made by another shop. Will there be any growth in that product? What other products could you produce with a better and MUCH faster machine? On the currently-outsourced parts, what kind of cycle time and production rate could you achieve with a 10,000 rpm spindle, 768ipm rapid rates, possibly coolant-thru spindle and rapid set up fixturing?

If you can't make your parts at a competitive cost, your competitors soon will. Home shop or not, if the parts are being sold, you should be making money. If not, why are you doing it?

BTW, I run a 15HP rotary phase converter on 100amp home service and it could easily handle a 7.5HP machine. The only time I've ever heard someone say "I bought too much machine" was when they didn't plan on the power to feed it.

[Gundawg]

I knew it would strike you as expensive, and that's why I suggested it's time to "cost out the part". What I mean by that is look at how many you now make, or should I say, have made by another shop. Will there be any growth in that product? What other products could you produce with a better and MUCH faster machine? On the currently-outsourced parts, what kind of cycle time and production rate could you achieve with a 10,000 rpm spindle, 768ipm rapid rates, possibly coolant-thru spindle and rapid set up fixturing?

If you can't make your parts at a competitive cost, your competitors soon will. Home shop or not, if the parts are being sold, you should be making money. If not, why are you doing it?

BTW, I run a 15HP rotary phase converter on 100amp home service and it could easily handle a 7.5HP machine. The only time I've ever heard someone say "I bought too much machine" was when they didn't plan on the power to feed it.

I won't be just running this machine I have a 3HP CNC router with a 3HP dust collector and a vacuum table drawing 15 amps and a 5 HP compressor. At times I have a worker and we could be running a manual lathe with a shop vacuum or vertical milling machine a 3HP cabinet saw panel saw chop saw etc not all at the same time but many times a combination of those machines. I need to stay small on the power draw. The parts I am making that would need the new CNC mill are a new product and sales are unknown just yet. If everything goes good a shop upgrade will be in the future with some bigger machines but I need to get by for now to see where this line of products goes.

Your advice is sound but a bigger machine is not going to happen right now. I have a Wells Index 847 vertical mill that I may upgrade to CNC or replace with a CNC. The problem is I still need to use this machine in manual mode so if I replace it I need to be able to run the new machine by hand for operations I do on the mill now that are not practical to do by CNC mode. I need a handle that I can feel the bit entering the material. I drill a lot of 5/16" SS rod with 3.1MM screw machine bits for a dowel pin in one operation if you can't feel the bit spot the hole and use a constant feed it will walk off the rod sometimes you just need to feel with your hands on delicate operations & the cycle time between parts would not be any faster with CNC even if I could program in the pause while the bit spots. I also use an aircraft countersink tool for another operation that goes very fast without clamping and locating parts that is done on the manual machine. I was thinking of adding a small machine and if the demand is there moving to a larger shop and bigger machines later.

Thanks Mike

[Ed from NY]

The tooling for Davids machine is totally custom, for his spindle, so you can not fit anything but his tooling

May be I'm being a bit thick, but what kind of tooling are you looking for? I suppose David's has solid holders, collet chucks (?), and drill chucks. The solid holders would hold a 3/4" Weldon. What are you looking for? Jacobs adapters?

[Gundawg]

A guy from another machining forum has offered me a Milltronics CNC mill for $5500 I am not sure what it comes with but it is supposed to work. As an option I am considering this type machine but I am wondering what I can expect to be able to do with it compared to the UMC-10 I posted the video of.

The plus side for the Milltronics from what I can see is I can still run it in manual mode for a few operations I am doing now so I could sell my other mill and make a spot for it in my shop. This mill would be a single tool mill no tool changer so I am wondering just how slow it would be for making parts. I am also not savvy on old control systems and if it would need to be upgraded. It is much less money but I am wondering if it would be too slow.

The mill I have now is a Wells-Index 847 I contacted Wells-Index about converting my machine to CNC and it was over $20K they told me they could sell me a used rebuilt machine cheaper than converting mine. I am not in a hurry to decide. I do not have time for a conversion process myself but I am wondering what is the big difference between some of these older machines and the newer stuff other than possibly being worn out? I like the idea of the enclosed cabinet but I need to keep the size down to a Bridgeport machine or smaller.

Here is a picture he sent me.

Mike

[mactec54]

Gundawg

The machine is a good machine, but the control is obsolete & has no support,I have a friend with one that spent a long time with the electronics, but he is a electronic's guru so was not a problem for him to keep it running

The price is way to much as well, $1800 to $2800 is about right, & without a tool changer your production would be slow with manual tool changes

You could convert the machine you have, It would be just as good as what you are looking at

[mactec54]

Ed from NY

If you watch his video, he talks about his tooling, & shows you one of the tool holders,(Totally Custom for his machine) He has a whole range of tooling for his machine that he has made, So you can't just go anywere & buy a tool holder for it, you have to get it from David

[DFrolka]

I know it's an old thread but,

Dave's UMC tools are custom, but aren't expensive.

I've ran over 5000 parts on mine, on a fourth axis, no problems

Electricity is the biggest advantage. Because its single phase and runs on less than 20amps, I have two of these running where I had one Fadal.

They run $22k, and super easy to work on being made in the USA.

You can check your email or invoice customers, on the control, while they run. Haha, awesome.