584,802 active members*
5,071 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Stepper Motors / Drives > What effect does microstepping have on torque?
Page 2 of 5 1234
Results 21 to 40 of 89
  1. #21
    I'm working on a step-motor PID closed-loop algorithm that will be implemented in the G-Rex firmware. About 6-months or so; it's a tough nut to crack but it will be worth it.

    Mariss

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    750
    Well,it will be worth it. Im sick of going slow, and trashing work trying to go fast.

    I,m sure if you do it (Marrise), it will be done well. I will continue poking around in the meantime. I know error checking and zero detection are being done, but the applications I know of are custom programs run on indexer platforms.

    Thanks
    Halfnutz

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1207
    I have been experimenting with PID stepper control, too. One encountered problem is the cyclic error of the motor or the encoder causing lack of torque at some angles. I got around it using a cyclic look up table to correct encoder readings.

    Mariss, do G-Rex have some kind of compensation for cyclic encoder error? Or is an expensive and very accurate encoder the solution?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mariss Freimanis View Post
    which is summed to the loop and adds about 70 degrees of phase margin.

    Mariss

    interesting. hey, i remember the terms gain margin and phase margin from my control systems class (i've forgotten 90% of what i learned in school)

    is this the same thing?

  5. #25
    The attached gif green trace shows an MCG IH23014 motor's cyclic error. The green trace scale is 0.0625 degree per volt and the motor speed is just under 1 rev per second (yellow sync trace).

    The peak to peak error amplitude is 1.3V for a 0.081 degree P to P cyclic error. It is approximately sinusoidal (as expected), giving a +/-0.04 degree non-accumulative error. This is twice as good as the guaranteed +/-0.09 degree (+/-5% of full step) motor specification.

    The test was run with a G201, the motor equipped with a 1,000 line encoder and a G100 generating the step pulse rate.

    The encoder was taken to the G100 and the G100 axis lead-lag register was ported to a G100 DAC output.

    The 10Hz, 100mV "waviness" can be attributed to the encoder accuracy limits.

    Mariss
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails TEK00013.GIF  

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1207
    How can you be sure it is stepper error and not encoder error? Even small runout of encoder codewheel will make cyclic sinusoidal error.

  7. #27
    This is a calibrated (and at $800 a very expensive) Canon instrument-grade laser encoder. It ouputs a sin/cos interpolatable to an accurate 50,000+ counts per revolution (+/- 0.003 degrees spec'ed). Not what you would ordinarily hang on the end of a $60 motor.

    Mariss

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1207
    A very nice encoder indeed :-)
    I'd wish those sin/cos encoders were more common.

  9. #29
    What's nice about even quasi-sine encoders is they completely eliminate PID dithering or hunting when a motor is stopped or turning slowly. The improvement is very noticable. Also you can apply a micro-position adjust summing signal to move the motor to any location between the quadrature limits.

    Mariss

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    262
    I assume you always mount that encoder before performing the "Mariss PImp slap mid band resonance test" ????? :-)


    Bill

  11. #31
    USDigital encoders with mylar disks yes. The Canon encoder no. The pain of breaking the chromed glass disk would be more than I could bear.:-)

    I like the technical sounding name for that test. May I borrow it?

    Mariss

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    262
    Sure you can borrow it it, I would be honored, I would think it should be come an acronym.

    One of my favorites for other uses is about firearms and gear

    A.T.A.S. = All Tactical and Shot (well not shot hehe)

    "Mariss PImp slap mid band resonance test" ????? :-)

    MPSMBRT ... It may take some effort to make the test consistant, times when there is no coffee in the building on a monday morning for example there may be more ft lbs of energy delivered to the motor :-)

    Bill

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Because English cannot understand it, I use an interpreter.
    I cannot express it definitely.


    By my experience, there is the case that objective torque does not come out by the rule electric current depending on the form of the driver IC in the case of the uni-polar motor.
    There is the case that an electric current spreads in the reverse aspect from a theory.
    When I called the driver IC maker, and it heard it, it was an answer to say to an electric current of the about √ double when I set it.
    I am careful to temperature rises (less than 80 degrees C), and please increase electric currents slowly.
    The temperature reaches equilibrium about 2 hours later.
    When a motor is installed to a metal frame, radiation of heat is simpleness.
    When a sound changed suddenly, the motor has magnetic saturation をの possibility and cannot expect more than it.
    A loss by the contents of this sentence is responsibility of your own. (I do not guarantee it)

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    6
    So the conclusion here may be that microstepping is good and useful at low speeds but when the speed increases (maybe higher than 5 steps per second?) it has a very negative effect in the Torque. is that right?

    I've found this table, but from what i understood in this post, this valid for higher speeds than 5steps per secnd.

    Microsteps/full step Holding Torque/Microstep

    1 100.00%
    2 70.71%
    4 38.27%
    8 19.51%
    16 9.80%
    32 4.91%
    64 2.45%
    128 1.23%
    256 0.61%

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3498
    Quote Originally Posted by CJL5585 View Post
    I believe the above posts by Mariss on microstepping motor operation should be made a sticky note which should be available under a stepper motor operation forum.
    Jerry
    Hi Jerry and all,
    I am sorry my post is not directly related to the content of the thread but i 100% agree with Jerry about keeping this valuable information from Mariss sticky.
    Mariss, why not you write a thesis and present it in the Automation world.
    Regards
    http://free3dscans.blogspot.com/ http://my-woodcarving.blogspot.com/
    http://my-diysolarwind.blogspot.com/

  16. #36
    bbp,

    Your table of torque versus microstep resolution is somewhat misinterpreted. Holding torque is defined as the torque a motor exerts when its shaft is displaced +/- 1.8 degrees from its rest position.

    The relationship between a stopped motor's torque versus its shaft angle is sinusoidal over the span of 1 full step and your table reflects this relationship.

    Let's say you have a stopped 300 in-oz (about 2.1 Nm) motor. You apply a torque load that displaces the shaft 1/10 of a step (0.18 degrees) from its unloaded rest position. The applied torque equals 300 in-oz times sine (90 / 10) or 47 in-oz (1/3 Nm).

    This is different than holding torque. Remove the 47 in-oz load and the motor returns to its original rest position. Exceed the 300 oz-in holding torque of the motor and it will jump to an adjacent pole location 7.2 degrees (4 full steps) away. It will not return to the original location when the load is removed.

    What this means practically is the motor will always be 0.18 degrees behind where you think it is with a continuous 47 in-oz load and it will be 1.8 degrees behind if you apply a continuous 300 in-oz load. Exactly the same numbers apply for a full-step drive as well. Remove the load and the motor will spring to the zero error location whether it's being microstepped or full-stepped.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Things get more interesting at higher speeds. The motor's inductance introduces a 90 degree phase lag in winding current versus driving voltage. This results in an unloaded motor being 1.8 degrees behind where you think it is at higher speeds and 3.6 degrees behind when it's loaded to just short of stalling. This behavior is drive-independent and the error is "reeled-in" when the motor slows down again.

    Mariss

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    6
    OK!
    thanks for the answer, I understand now!!!:wave:

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    0
    This is a very insightful thread and discussion. Thank you!


    When do you choose to use a servo over a stepper (micro stepped and full step) for an application (please add comments and/or corrections)?


    Steppers: 50-100 pole design

    Positives:
    - Low cost
    - High torque at low speeds and holding torque
    - More torque density, smaller motor footprint for same power (Watt) size
    - Can handle higher inertia mis-match ratios up to 30x + (inertia load/inertia of motor - assume directly coupled, not taking gearing or belt reduction into consideration). Servos start to get unstable at 10 - 20x range

    Negatives:
    - Requires more current to operate so run hotter in constant current mode (open loop)
    - Slower acceleration due to pole design
    - Noisier than servos
    - More "cogging" than servos due to design
    - Resolution: as good as 8000 cnts/rev encoder even with micro stepping
    - Speeds limited, typically up to 2000 RPMs before torque is useless

    Servos, 4-12 pole design

    Positives:
    - High speed, high torque (up to 10,000 RPMs)
    - Applications requiring high dynamic response
    - Can synchronize multiple motors and do coordinated motion up to 4 axes typically
    - Offers encoder resolutions up to 18 bit (262,144 counts/rev) and sometimes 20 bit.
    - Typically more accuracy since encoders are within +/- 1 count with properly tuned systems
    - Provides enough current to move or hold a load
    - Other current algorithms are possible including learning machine vibrations and self compensating

    Negatives:
    - Cost
    - Overkill for simple motion and applications that require lower speed (1000 RPMs)

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    0

  20. #40
    OK, there are a bunch of misconceptions on this topic and they start with how microstepping versus torque is defined.

    A step motor only generates restoring torque when the motor shaft is displaced from its rest position. You leave the motor alone, it sits perfectly at its rest position but generates no torque. Why? Because it's sitting where it should be.

    You apply some torque to the stopped motor. It moves from its rest position a little and it develops some torque to move it back to that position once you leave it alone. You apply even greater torque and it moves the motor further from its rest position. It generates even greater torque to get back to where it was before no one bothered it.

    The motor acts like a torsional spring. Give it a little twist and the spring moves a little; give it a big twist and it moves more. Let go and it returns to where it was.

    Unlike a spring, a step motor has a limit how hard you can twist it. The limit is the motor's holding torque. Holding torque is reached when you twist the motor 1.8 degrees off of its rest position.

    This is where the misconceptions come into play. Twist the motor at 10% of its holding torque and you will move the motor 1/10 of a full step. Twist the motor at 1% of its holding torque and you will move the motor 1/100 of a full step.

    Does that mean the motor has only 10% or or 1% of its original holding torque? No; it's still the same as before. All it means is the motor's displacement angle is a function of the percentage of holding torque applied to the motor.

    Mariss

Page 2 of 5 1234

Similar Threads

  1. VFD's? Frequency effect on motor power and torque
    By glengeniii in forum Phase Converters
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-01-2012, 05:24 PM
  2. Drive torque and pull out torque
    By bpp in forum Stepper Motors / Drives
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-29-2011, 11:14 PM
  3. Holding torque vs rotational torque ?
    By SScnc in forum DIY CNC Router Table Machines
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-06-2010, 01:41 PM
  4. AGAIN! Does a stepper lose torque with microstepping?
    By protrackcorp in forum Stepper Motors / Drives
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-08-2009, 07:12 PM
  5. What am I getting this effect?...
    By cnczoner in forum MetalWork Discussion
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 02-02-2008, 06:31 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •