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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    6

    CNC Winding Machine....How to?

    Hallo!
    first of all i have to apologize because most probably i'm writing this post in the wrong section....maybe...
    i'm building a CNC winding machine, I already have experience with CNC router, i have some stepper and drivers so i wanted to use them.
    the idea is very simple: one stepper rotates the bobin and another stepper moves continuosely the wire from one site to the other of the bobin, nothing difficult...seemed!
    i tried to figure out this motion in g-code (independent move of two axis) but no way, i have no idea of how to do it in g-code, i don't even know if it is feasible.
    Could someone advise some g-code for that? or in case g-code does not fit the purpouse, do you have any suggestion on how to solve the problem?:drowning:
    thanks a lot!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2985
    It is easily accomplished with G-code. I will assume your bobbin rotation axis C and your guide axis Z. I will further assume one unit in the C axis is 1 rotation and 1 unit in the z axis is 1 mm. I will also assume your wire is 1mm diameter for this example.

    So you want the C axis to rotate 1 unit for every 1 unit (1mm) of the Z axis. For 0.5mm wire you would want 2 C axis rotations per Z axis mm.

    G-code like this:

    G1Z10C10F100

    This will simultaneously rotate the bobbin 10 turns and advance the guide 10 mm to get a nice laydown. Obviously you would increase these numbers to make the wrap wider and alter the ratio between the numbers to accomodate different wire sizes. Now you would have a similar line of G code to go back to the start:

    Z0C0 Then Repeat for multiple wraps.

    So for 4 layers of windings 10mm wide the gcode would be:

    G0Z0C0
    G1Z10C10F100
    Z0C20
    Z10C30
    Z0C40


    Hope this helps
    Matt

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by keebler303 View Post
    It is easily accomplished with G-code. I will assume your bobbin rotation axis C and your guide axis Z. I will further assume one unit in the C axis is 1 rotation and 1 unit in the z axis is 1 mm. I will also assume your wire is 1mm diameter for this example.

    So you want the C axis to rotate 1 unit for every 1 unit (1mm) of the Z axis. For 0.5mm wire you would want 2 C axis rotations per Z axis mm.

    G-code like this:

    G1Z10C10F100

    This will simultaneously rotate the bobbin 10 turns and advance the guide 10 mm to get a nice laydown. Obviously you would increase these numbers to make the wrap wider and alter the ratio between the numbers to accomodate different wire sizes. Now you would have a similar line of G code to go back to the start:

    Z0C0 Then Repeat for multiple wraps.

    So for 4 layers of windings 10mm wide the gcode would be:

    G0Z0C0
    G1Z10C10F100
    Z0C0
    Z10C10
    Z0C0


    Hope this helps
    Matt
    thanks a lot Matt! of course this helps!! i have just one doubt: assuming that the C>0 means clockwise turning, when C is going back from 10 to 0 the bobing is turning backwards thus unwrapping the wire fom the bobin? am i wrong?
    if so, this could be avoided like this:

    G0Z0C0
    G1Z10C10F100
    Z0C20
    Z10C30
    Z0C40

    but this way the bobin rotation wouldn't be continuous, there would be a zero speed point at the end of each row of the g-code, if so there would be an uneven tension of the wire and (most important) it would take ages to complete the winding considering that the number of coils is above 8.000.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    1880
    tension shouldn't be managed that way IMO it should be through a friction device (to be determined based off of you roll of wire) kind of like a welder friction roller for feeding wire through.
    thanks
    Michael T.
    "If you don't stand for something, chances are, you'll fall for anything!"

  5. #5
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    Jan 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by miljnor View Post
    tension shouldn't be managed that way IMO it should be through a friction device (to be determined based off of you roll of wire) kind of like a welder friction roller for feeding wire through.
    It makes sense, but i still have the problem of speeding up the process...

  6. #6
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    Jan 2005
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    isnt that controlled by spindle speed verses feed rate?

    can't you just increase those parameters?
    thanks
    Michael T.
    "If you don't stand for something, chances are, you'll fall for anything!"

  7. #7
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    Jan 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by miljnor View Post
    isnt that controlled by spindle speed verses feed rate?

    can't you just increase those parameters?
    OMG!!! you're right!! Mach3 can control the spindle as Step/Dir... and that's it!!! the rest it's just back an forth on one of the axis!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    1880
    lol, Glad I could help. :cheers:
    thanks
    Michael T.
    "If you don't stand for something, chances are, you'll fall for anything!"

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by corcia View Post
    OMG!!! you're right!! Mach3 can control the spindle as Step/Dir... and that's it!!! the rest it's just back an forth on one of the axis!
    my first thought was to setup the rotating stepper as say the Y axis, and the side to side as X, then you just need to "draw" a zigzag line

    set it up so the length of one zig is one turn of the rotating axis

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    4519
    I would have thought this would be very easy on a CNC lathe.

    If length of bobbin is 20 mm and wire is 1 mm and Z0. is start of first wrap:

    G0 X(some number for clearance) Z0.
    S(desired rotation RPM) M3
    G1 Z-19. F1.
    Z0.
    Z-19.
    Z0.
    Z-19.
    Z0.
    (repeat as needed for desired number of layers)
    M0

    Can also be built into a loop or a macro or a sub call if needed.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2985
    Quote Originally Posted by corcia View Post
    thanks a lot Matt! of course this helps!! i have just one doubt: assuming that the C>0 means clockwise turning, when C is going back from 10 to 0 the bobing is turning backwards thus unwrapping the wire fom the bobin? am i wrong?
    if so, this could be avoided like this:

    G0Z0C0
    G1Z10C10F100
    Z0C20
    Z10C30
    Z0C40

    but this way the bobin rotation wouldn't be continuous, there would be a zero speed point at the end of each row of the g-code, if so there would be an uneven tension of the wire and (most important) it would take ages to complete the winding considering that the number of coils is above 8.000.
    Of course you are correct, my mistake. The Z would go back and forth, the C would always be increasing. If you have "CV" mode enabled, it would not stop at the end, it would continue turning. Obviously you could bump up the feedrate to get to whatever speed you needed. I think your mechanical setup would be the limiting factor, far before mach ran out of steam. With a proper mechanical setup, you could wind the coils in a matter of seconds.

    Matt

  12. #12
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    Jan 2006
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    2985
    Quote Originally Posted by txcncman View Post
    I would have thought this would be very easy on a CNC lathe.

    If length of bobbin is 20 mm and wire is 1 mm and Z0. is start of first wrap:

    G0 X(some number for clearance) Z0.
    S(desired rotation RPM) M3
    G1 Z-19. F1.
    Z0.
    Z-19.
    Z0.
    Z-19.
    Z0.
    (repeat as needed for desired number of layers)
    M0

    Can also be built into a loop or a macro or a sub call if needed.
    I would think you would want to have the motion synchronized with the spindle rotation to prevent a mistake like a gap or an overlap due to the small error between commanded speed and actual. Maybe you could use some part of a threading cycle? I'm not real familiar with lathe G code.

    Matt

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    4519
    There might be some slight error in the timing. But how accurate does winding wire really need to be? The wire will tend to lay the way it wants as it is wrapping. You can probably make some more complicated G-code to account for timing if you wish, but in this case, I would not think it is needed. A more tricky problem might be maintaining desired tension on the wire while wrapping.

  14. #14
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    Jan 2006
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    2985
    I think this guy has figured out how to maintain tension on the wire while rapping. :banana::banana::banana:


    But seriously, I think the previously mentioned MIG welder type setup would be fine.

    Matt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails roots.JPG  

  15. #15
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    Jan 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by keebler303 View Post
    But seriously, I think the previously mentioned MIG welder type setup would be fine.

    Matt
    it would work for shure, but it's too much for my needs, i just wanted to control (more or less) the number of turns per layer...
    BTW it's becoming more and more difficult to find PC with a parallel port, is there any software similar to mach3 that will work on usb port? or just won't use the parallel Port?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2985
    A MIG style wire tensioner is basically just a bolt, a spring, a couple washers and a nut. Its not rocket science.

    It is easiest (and cheapest) to use an older computer with a parallel port. They can generally be had on ebay for less than $50 and we have local classifieds (craigslist) where you can generally find one almost free. I am not sure if such resources are available around you.

    Another option is the Warp 9 Smoothstepper, which is USB based and can be used on about any PC, including laptops.

    Matt

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1230
    Quote Originally Posted by corcia View Post
    Hallo!
    first of all i have to apologize because most probably i'm writing this post in the wrong section....maybe...
    i'm building a CNC winding machine, I already have experience with CNC router, i have some stepper and drivers so i wanted to use them.
    the idea is very simple: one stepper rotates the bobin and another stepper moves continuosely the wire from one site to the other of the bobin, nothing difficult...seemed!
    i tried to figure out this motion in g-code (independent move of two axis) but no way, i have no idea of how to do it in g-code, i don't even know if it is feasible.
    Could someone advise some g-code for that? or in case g-code does not fit the purpouse, do you have any suggestion on how to solve the problem?:drowning:
    thanks a lot!!
    What code is used is somewhat irrelevant. Servo or Stepper drives don't actually use typical G codes to drive them. The system has an interpreter that converts it into motion command that the system understands.

    You say you're building this machine, and from the sound of it the control. What brand of stepper control are you using? Galil make PC based and stand alone Servo/Stepper controls that work very well with which you can achieve your objectives.

    Regards,

    Bill

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    269
    Sorry for reply this little old topic but im still interesed in that Coil machine.

    For example i can use an stepper for Z Axis this will be easy to program, but im thinking about get much speed C Axis (Rotation) using an stepper get too enough speed?, what other spindle motor can i use an ca control the turns?? an small servo? i never use servo motors, dont know if can be ok for the project.

    Thanks in advance

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24216
    As mentioned, it should be a piece of cake with something like Galil & servo's.
    MotionCode - Galil: We Move The World
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  20. #20
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    Sep 2010
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    1230
    Quote Originally Posted by samsagaz View Post
    Sorry for reply this little old topic but im still interesed in that Coil machine.

    For example i can use an stepper for Z Axis this will be easy to program, but im thinking about get much speed C Axis (Rotation) using an stepper get too enough speed?, what other spindle motor can i use an ca control the turns?? an small servo? i never use servo motors, dont know if can be ok for the project.

    Thanks in advance
    As Al said, this would be a piece of cake with a Galil or similar card.

    Even the basic Galil units have Electronic Gearing. With this you don't need any special motor for the winding component, just an encoder attached in some way to indicate the rotation of the drum onto which the material is being spooled. No motor and spinning by hand will even work; you just need an encoder to feed the Galil card. In Electronic Gearing Mode, and the encoder of the Winding Drum set as Master, a Servo or Stepper Motor will obediently follow the Master at whatever Ratio is set.

    The encoder count of the following device can be continually queried to determine when each end of the spool has been reached so that the traverse direction can be reversed.

    Galil use a pseudo BASIC programming language and is easy to learn if you have no programming experience.

    Regards,

    Bill

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