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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9

    Lightbulb Early FADAL VMC retrofit

    Hello all! Been lurking for some time as I planned this mill retrofit. Thought the least I could do is do is compile this into a build thread.

    Machine came with new Glentek analog brush drive/PS combo's matched to the existing motors. In my searches for reasonably priced hardware, capable for this task, I kept coming across the DSPMC/IP with Mach3 and finally just ordered it... stop looking. Quad encoders will be installed on all axis providing feedback to the DSPMC motion controller, and I plan on leaving the original tach's as feedback to the Glentek drives allowing velocity mode control.

    For an HMI, I picked up a 17" industrial panel PC, resistive touch screen, 8gb ram, Dual core 3.1GHz i3 processor. I plan on running XPe (embedded) with Mach3, although I have not seen much on this in the forum. Appears possible, but anyone doing it? Why?

    Also bought a 100 count MPG, some pushbuttons to indicate and reset drive faults, and a flat washable surface mount keyboard for data entry, as I did not want to rely on a touchscreen keyboard.

    I have ordered a 32 IO board that translates 3.3V TTL to AC or DC. Modules are ordered separately to provide AC or DC, Inputs or Outputs. This will be wired directly to the DSPMC (capable of 96 IO).

    The only thing left to do is get an enclosure for the HMI panel, and a spindle load analog meter.

    Anyone with experience on this tool changer out there? It may cause me some grief (chair) to get operational.

    Also, there appears to be 2 gears for the spindle? Anyone have details on this? RPM ranges?

    Attached are some pictures of the beast as received (pretty good shape!)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2011-10-31 07.16.09.jpg   2011-10-31 07.16.22.jpg   2011-10-31 07.19.40.jpg   2011-10-31 07.20.55.jpg  


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1194
    That is like one of the first Fadals! WOW a 1981!!
    We have had good luck with our Fadals milling mostly soft steel and aluminum up to 5 axis. We are always looking for spare parts If you have a broken down Fadal give a shout.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    322
    What a beauty.. wish I could lay my hands on one of those. Rigid, well built, with an auto tool changer...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    3920

    Nice machine, looks like you got lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkyuss View Post
    Hello all! Been lurking for some time as I planned this mill retrofit. Thought the least I could do is do is compile this into a build thread.
    I've actually been lurking here a long time and just recently decided to get involved a little deeper.
    Machine came with new Glentek analog brush drive/PS combo's matched to the existing motors. In my searches for reasonably priced hardware, capable for this task, I kept coming across the DSPMC/IP with Mach3 and finally just ordered it... stop looking. Quad encoders will be installed on all axis providing feedback to the DSPMC motion controller, and I plan on leaving the original tach's as feedback to the Glentek drives allowing velocity mode control.
    Glentek was really nice hardware. I use to service single point diamond turning machines built around such hardware. We where keeping tolerances within 2 to 4 microns all day cutting tight radiuses.
    For an HMI, I picked up a 17" industrial panel PC, resistive touch screen, 8gb ram, Dual core 3.1GHz i3 processor. I plan on running XPe (embedded) with Mach3, although I have not seen much on this in the forum. Appears possible, but anyone doing it? Why?
    Not to be a party pooper but I'm not a big fan of industrial panel PCs. It is far easier to service and keep running a machine with a separate LCD and computer. But you already got one so best of luck.

    At work we use lots of PCs running normal Windows, XP or better and frankly it is a mixed bag. Note this is for PLC MMIs. Touch screens are a horrible way to interface to a PC so do keep a mouse and track pad handy. Given that when it does come time for me to CNC something I will probably go the Linux route unless a good option becomes available on the Mac. Why? Well simple constant updates that require reboots with often unexpected side effects.

    Now we do run into other other windows issues. But I'm not going to blame them on windows itself because of the mix mash of hardware and software in use. As to Mach3, never used it so obviously I can't comment, but I always hear good things.
    Also bought a 100 count MPG, some pushbuttons to indicate and reset drive faults, and a flat washable surface mount keyboard for data entry, as I did not want to rely on a touchscreen keyboard.
    Even vertically mounted keyboards are a pain. At work we screwed a couple of keyboards to roll around stands for use for anything but the most trivial of operations.
    I have ordered a 32 IO board that translates 3.3V TTL to AC or DC. Modules are ordered separately to provide AC or DC, Inputs or Outputs. This will be wired directly to the DSPMC (capable of 96 IO).

    The only thing left to do is get an enclosure for the HMI panel, and a spindle load analog meter.

    Anyone with experience on this tool changer out there? It may cause me some grief (chair) to get operational.

    Also, there appears to be 2 gears for the spindle? Anyone have details on this? RPM ranges?

    Attached are some pictures of the beast as received (pretty good shape!)
    Nice pics, looks like you got a winner.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9
    Wow time flies!

    Thanks for the comments and input.

    Machine is now moving all three axis but no spindle running yet.

    The transformer pre-existing in the machine provides 84V AC 3 phase with a 208Y 3 phase input. The glentek drives are rated from 90-120 VAC 3 phase, and as such, I happen to be just below the threshold on the spindle drive (while the axis are putting out just fine).

    I think I am stuck until I get a new transformer. 2:1 should give me 104VAC out.

    Almost done the tool change macro. It has not been a simple task coordinating the dance between the motors and sensors. I have been doing a 'while input is off, sleep' VB logic, but occasionally I will miss a sensor trigger at which point the program becomes out of sync with the mechanics. ERROR.

    So, there must be a better way....
    Could I wire the optical limit switches to one of my extra encoder inputs and then poll the encoder OEMDRO? They wont provide a proper quadrature output but if I get a reliable count?

    Or write a script into the charge pump macro (I think it runs at 12.5khz?) that monitors the limits and increment a USERDRO?


    Also wondering what is acceptable for acceleration rates of the 3 axis.
    As tuned I can get 400 ipm (Theotetical 425 max) with acceleration at 20. much higher acceleration and I get following errors. Not sure if I should call it good or push some more.


    Gear changer on the spindle....... Anyone familiar? does the spindle need to be stopped to change gears? Low RPM's? I'm a little in the dark on this one.

    I will get some more pics here soon.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    Not to be a party pooper but I'm not a big fan of industrial panel PCs. It is far easier to service and keep running a machine with a separate LCD and computer. But you already got one so best of luck.

    Even vertically mounted keyboards are a pain. At work we screwed a couple of keyboards to roll around stands for use for anything but the most trivial of operations.
    I am so far pleased with the touchscreen and panel pc. Went with windows7-32bit, and stripped it down to the bare essentials. Nothing runs on this PC except for Mach and it will never see the internet, or have to restart on its own due to updates or hibernating etc etc. Blazing fast, this PC with solid state HDD boots in about 5 seconds directly into mach3. If it wasn't for the DSPMC, I would not consider windows reliable as a machine control platform. So far I am impressed.

    The keyboard is working well, but definitely not ergonomic. I did bring out a USB port on the panel so a wireless keyboard/mouse could always get used in the future.

    Cheers

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9

    Back At IT!!!

    Alright... It has been awhile. Time for some more pics and VIDEO to lure you guys in as I have some...... issues to work out and I am sure one of you has the answer!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails a2011-10-31 07.16.09.jpg   a2012-01-31 17.49.44.jpg  

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9
    Windows 7 32 Bit on a Superlogics Panel PC with Resistive touch screen.
    superlogics.com/industrial-computers/panel-pc-computer/SL-PPC-153M-LLQ67-VA/35-4169.htm
    i5 CPU + Solid State HDD + 8 gb mem upgrade.

    Optical touch keyboard from electronickeyboards.com

    Vitalsystem.com DSPMC/ip V2 motion controller.

    Encoder breakout boards from Automation Direct (Zip link DB-25 breakout)

    32 channel Grayhill IO board custom wired 50 pin to dual DB 25 pin connector. (I could have used a few more IO than this....... May still do it one day)

    Glenteck brushed DC servo drives (NEW) with original motors. Original resolvers have been replaced with quadrature, 1024 ppr encoders, with index.

    MPG from worldencoders.com

    Spindle and tool swap arm encoders from automationdirect.com (quadrature linedriver (5V) with index)



    The PC runs Mach3, which commands the DSPMC motion controller.
    As I have a fast PC, I upped the Mach3 kernel frequency to 60 kHz in hope I would improve the issues I will get to shortly..... (as I write, maybe this is some of my problem.... I will troubleshoot with different frequencies tomorrow as I changed this setting early on....)

    This machine has a brushless DC servo drive for spindle with a 4 speed gearbox. Motor max's at 2400 RPM, goes through the gear box and pulley system to provide the spindle output.
    1st gear 0-750 RPM Ratio 6:1
    2nd gear 0-1500 RPM Ratio 3:1
    3rd gear 0-2250 RPM Ratio 2:1
    4th gear 0-4500 RPM Ratio 1:1

    Gears are controlled with solenoid valves/pneumatic cylinders and proximity switch feedback.

    Tool change involves a 24 tool carasel, and 'swap arm'. Tool carasel consists of 2 AC geared motors, one driving tool position, and one to rotate the tool 90 degrees in preparation for the swap. Prox sensors determine tool position and orientation for feedback. 'Swap arm' consists of another 2 AC geared motors with a cammed arm that controls motion of the arm with encoder feedback.
    One AC motor drives vertical motion while the other drives rotational motion (at least this is how I interpreted the mechanics.... I could in theory drive both motors always to increase torque and potentially speed but it makes more sense??? to me? this way.)
    Oh ya, the spindle must be properly orientated for this tool change to properly occur.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2011-11-19 13.09.49.jpg   2011-11-19 13.08.02.jpg   2011-11-19 13.07.50.jpg   2011-11-30 21.59.14.jpg  

    2011-12-03 21.13.11.jpg   2012-01-31 17.51.05.jpg   2012-01-07 12.15.53.jpg  

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9
    And so some video..(damn it!.... an hour of converting and zipping and raring and F it! Cant post video on this site!...youtube it is)

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Z6VJbNvY8&feature=youtube_gdata]Fadal - YouTube[/ame]

    I thought I got a good clip of some tool changes but I guess not....(back to vodeography school for me!). just some cut clips and this one example of my issues orientating the spindle ACCURATELY for tool changes.

    This video shows that the spindle stopped in what I have defined as the 'safezone' in my macro..... so it didn't separately orientate the spindle and proceeded with the change.. which didn't allow the dogs to align (I manually correct it at the end of the video). I can tighten the 'safezone' but I am having issues with repeatability with Mach3 responding to input pulses. I think if anything I need to expand my safezone for more reliable recognition, but this looses out on the accuracy of my positioning.

    I will detail further my workarounds (and justifications) and encountered issues in the next post. Input Appreciated!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9

    Issues

    So I don't think this is an issue, but a workaround that seemed to have to be done (unless I missed something). Mach3 seems to take control before the m3/m4 command for spindle control in the MAX/MIN pulley limitations defined in the pulley ratios.

    If I define pulley 1 as 0-750, pulley 2 as 750-1500 etc.......
    when I am in pulley 1, and call a S1000m3, I get an override by Mach3 to 750 max speed for pulley. The same in the opposite direction, if I am in pulley 2 and command s500m3, Mach3 overrides min pulley speed to 750.

    So the workaround, all pulleys are defined as 0-4500 RPM
    My m3/m4 macros look at requested speed and current gearing. Decide if a gear change is required, and multiplies the s word according to my gearing ratio.

    s750m3, shifts me into first gear, and the first gear multiplier is 6.... So SetSpinSpeed=SpinSpeed*6 (750*6=4500).
    So My S word in Mach3 is 4500, yet my spindle, and RPM encoder feedback indicate 750.
    I have simply deleted the sword DRO's from my screens (as they are wrong unless I'm in 4th gear) and only provide OEMDRO 39, my encoder feedback.

    Potential implications while tapping? I hope not... as all should sink to this REAL RPM DRO, as I understand. Yes/No????




    My tool swap arm contains two internal lead screws to provide linear and rotational motion. Each connected to separate motors. I have an encoder connected to this common shaft, but motion is not linear. It rocks back and forth a couple rotations each swap cycle. To get access to this encoder info, in the DSPMC plugin, axis A has been mapped to this encoder, analogue out goes to a dummy output, homing is off and following error is set to 0 so it is ignored.
    By doing this, I can now manually zero the DRO, and poll, or read the DRO to make decisions in my macro.

    I have done the same workaround to my spindle encoder, mapped to axis B. Now homing the spindle requires access to the index pulse, which (Although the hardware already has this input, I just dont know how to get access to it!) I could only get by parallel wiring the encoder Z+ to a separate input on the DSPMC. This provides a very quick 1/RPM pulse that I can sink to.

    I created a trigger macro (I think correctly as it most of the time works) that stops the spindle when the Z+ spindle encoder input triggers. BUT, I have to spin the spindle at 1-2 RPM MAX to get it to work 85% of the time. Not good enough! When it works, I zero the spindle encoder (B axis DRO) and I can now use getOEMDRO in a macro to poll the B axis DRO for spindle orientation an decide CW/CCW Stop to achieve orientation.

    This is all done difficultly in MACRO's, which is 1/2 my problem.

    The thing that frustrates me, is that I have FULLY capable hardware (DSPMC and 4 Servo drives with encoder feedback), and I cant command my spindle with any accuracy.

    I talked with Rufi at VitalSystem and apparently I will soon be able to do CCW rotation with my spindle which requires +/-10V for operation (update to the DSPMC plugin), just like the rest of my servos. Currently the DSPMC will only provide 0-10V for spindle control. Rufi, if you read this, Could we put a checkbox in the plugin axis parameters to use this PID loop as spindle (Axis C option maybe??).

    I would like to see full servo spindle integration capability if I am going to use this system again. The hardware is capable. I should be able to command any spindle orientation or RPM, just like a position or feed rate on my X,Y, and Z. I have thought about setting the spindle as the C axis and then writing a macro to feed the s words and spindle commands to axis C. This might be worth pursuing if it will be more repetitive and robust. Thoughts anyone????

    Finally, I hope.... I have received a Mach3 error a couple times now.... it is attached. Usually happens with other issues in macro execution that is not normal such as errors, or freezing in a routine that has operated correctly 20 times previously. This scares me. I don't like weird errors on machinery and this need to stop before I will be comfortable with it.

    So............ Please chime in with your suggestion and input. It is so close to being a real machine again!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012-01-31 17.44.58.jpg  

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9
    So here is an update......

    Like magic, I have a new updated DSPmc plugin that allows me to control my spindle as either 0-10V (standard), +/-10V OR as an AXIS! Which means I tune the PID on say axis C and assign the spindle index to 5 and I can command c axis orientation with g code to orient my spindle, OR call a s????m3/m4 and produce normal spindle operation.

    I thought the axis control was the answer! UNTIL I changed gears.......

    2nd gear wasn't bad but 3rd gear was showing significant oscillations of spindle RPM. If there was no gearbox this is the way to go! OR I believe if I put an additional encoder on the spindle motor (instead of the output of the spindle itself) I could also get around this.

    So +/-10V is the setting I am currently using. Other than I almost always get some CCW rotation at the beginning of a m3 and CW rotation at the beginning of an m4??????? Only a second or two. But odd... I also have a significant offset of RPM... at commanded 0 speed I actually spin ~20 RPM. I would like to fix this as it is annoying.

    I do need to try a tapping routine to see how this will perform. As I have encoder feedback on the spindle, I would expect the Z feedrate to be synced with the real RPM???? Is this true??? If the offset is present in the tapping routine, this will be a requirement!! I do have a floating tap head but.... I will have to try. Hopefully not breaking taps.


    AND this is a big one for anyone thinking or using the DSPmc controller with tool changers or any other time sensitive IO............

    There is the option to program macros directly to the DSPmc micro controller! Either this is not well advertised, or I plainly missed it, but this has solved all my timing issues (A month of wasted time and money fighting with mach3's IO refresh rates!). Having the macros run directly on the hardware extremely improves the response time of my IO, allowing for repetitive, consistent operation. Exactly what I expected. This completely skips the windows/pc/mach3 latency and priority issues. Action occurs immediately and I am finally becoming pleased with this setup.

    This has been a lot more work than originally planned.... virtually everything mechanical has been rebuilt/cleaned and everything electrical (except the motors) is brand new.


    Still getting the odd error screen as pictured previously..... Would love to fix this as all my IO seems to lock up at the same time?? No one has seen this? is it DSPmc specific? An issue with my mach3 macros?


    So, here are her first chips in a long time!
    First Chips! - YouTube



    Drillin some holes to check for accuracy/repetitiveness
    Lots of holes - YouTube



    Bigger holes
    Fadal - 7/8 holes - YouTube



    Now we're cookin' with gas!
    Now come the chips! - YouTube



    And a tool change......
    Tool change - YouTube




    Cheers!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1194
    Beautiful!
    We have had good luck with our Fadals milling mostly soft steel and aluminum up to 5 axis. We are always looking for spare parts If you have a broken down Fadal give a shout.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    nice work! Im gonna retro a vmc 15 soon

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: Early FADAL VMC retrofit

    you guys might like this video
    Fadal retrofit upgrade reusing existing Fadal servo drives and Motors.
    https://youtu.be/zyOEEqa3GLQ

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1194

    Re: Early FADAL VMC retrofit

    Falling out of position by .0004" and rigid tapping would be my concerns with that retrofit. Also do you have to go through the same hoops and does it even support 4 or 5 axis machining on the Fadal?
    We have had good luck with our Fadals milling mostly soft steel and aluminum up to 5 axis. We are always looking for spare parts If you have a broken down Fadal give a shout.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: Early FADAL VMC retrofit

    that is on a accell or decell move for a very short period.. steady state error is zero. all cnc controls have follow error on accell decell.. most won't admit it.. since it doesn't matter. and yes..centroid control is good for up to 8 axis.
    here is a recent video with some nice 5 axis work being done.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrC5jRohsrI

    also you might like this Fadal retrofit webpage and video(at bottom)
    Fadal Parts Repair Service 3016 VMC CNC Vertical Machining Center Retrofit upgrade.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: Early FADAL VMC retrofit

    here is direct link to fadal retrofit video
    https://youtu.be/omd3bIHJe98

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