[SimplyDifferent]

I have been lurking around here and in the beginning research stages of building a CNC Router. I have very limited space and want to build a router large enough to do full size entry doors, at least 36" x 80".

Due to my limited floor space I was wondering if making the bed vertical is a realistic design. I have seen metal working vertical beds, so why not a woodworking one?

My thoughts are to make the be about 42" tall and 86" long. The footprint would only be about 24" by 86"? The bed would not be perfectly vertical but more like 80 degrees vertical so any parts that might be cut completely out will not fall off the bed.

Any thoughts?

Dan of SimplyDifferent Woodworking LLC

[jsheerin]

There are several previous threads on this in this forum. The big questions are work holding (which you seem to have thought a bit about) and lifting more weight than is typically done (lifting all of the z axis instead of just part of it, basically). Both these things could be solved, but you'll probably end up trading floor space for higher cost of a motor and less workholding flexibility.

[ger21]

The bed would not be perfectly vertical but more like 80 degrees vertical so any parts that might be cut completely out will not fall off the bed.

Even on a flat table machine, parts that are completely cut out must still be firmly mounted to the table, or they'll most likely be ruined, as they'll get pulled into the bit when the cut completes. So this is really a non issue imo.

To build a vertical machine and get similar performance to a flat machine, you'll need a much more expensive drive system, as you'll now be fighting gravity. What gives pretty good performance on a flat machine may not even work at all on a vertical machine. You can push 100 lbs on linear rails easily with 1 finger, but it takes a LOT more force to lift it up, and even more to lift it rapidly.

[BanduraMaker]

Just a thought: A simple pulleyed counterweight system could make the "weight" of the gantry effectively zero. Of course you've doubled the mass which would slow your max accel.

[twistedfuse]

Dan,

It can definately be done. One professional system is from axyz.

However like above, i too think it may cause the budget to blow out. Instead, personally i would seriously consider what size you actually need and reduce the footprint that way as alot of people go big, but never use the space. Yes having a machine to handle full sheets is great but if you never use its useless and ripping sheets down is fairly quick and simple. You can even allow for larger panels by designing an open ended design.

Another alternative i have seen, is (since its only woodworking and not extreme tolerances) to create an arm from a wall above a table or something, this doubles the workspace uses. There is one on this forum somewhere which if i find will link.

Daniel

[BanduraMaker]

Another thought - make it so that the gantry still moves parallel to the ground - that way you only have to double the mass of the short axis with a counterweight.

Edit - just saw that the AXYZ has such a configuration.

[SimplyDifferent]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts! I am trying to design it to carve mantles, bench backs and entry doors as the large items and cabinet doors, clocks and wall hangings for the smaller items.

I could reduce it to not do entry doors on this unit until I can build a larger shop. That way I am looking at mantles and bench backs as the largest items. By reducing it to those items for now, I can get it down to a cutting area of 18" x 72", so effectively the footprint may be as small as 24" by 78"? therefore accomplishing the same size. I was trying to make a one time investment but that may not be realistic.

Going to that size on a horizontal bed now makes me wonder if the X axis should be on a single ball screw or stick with the R&P design using two motors and R&P as I originally had in mind.

Thanks!

[SimplyDifferent]

I also have a Legacy Model 1200 Ornamental Mill that is a 5 axis manual machine. Basically it is an overhead router/lathe. besides the normal X, Y and Z axis', the other two are a tilting bed for doing tapers and a rotating spindle for doing turnings. I can do columns up to 11" diameter and flat stock up to 14" wide and both up to 72" long. The footprint is close to what I want in the CNC.

All I would have to do to this machine would be to get a 5 axis stepper motor kit (with everything else needed) and some anti-backlash nuts for the ball screws. Going this way would allow for carvings wrapped around legs and columns.

Would this be a better alternative to convert this machine to a CNC Router?

[twistedfuse]

The idea to reduce the size is a good one if your space is definately your focus. As for your entry doors, if you make the machine run sideways (ie with long gantry - like most surfboard machines) and long enough to handle the longest door you commonly do, it could be possible to create a jig/fence with dro, to index the door allowing you to use a process called toolpath panelling which takes the full design and breaks it down to sections that suit the machine size.

With regards to the machine design it depends on how you design it. If you run it like a standard design with a short gantry width, i'd use a single ballscrew or single rack and pinion by bracing under the table, however if you design the machine sideways with the long gantry length, i would run dual ballscrews/rack and pinion.

On the other side the ornamental mill is a good idea too, just put some real thought to how it will all go together. Sometimes you'll spend way more time having to try and design and build something to suit then to just build from scratch.

Daniel

[twistedfuse]

P.S Another alternative, sell your legacy mill and replace it with one of their cnc artisan machines. They are 4 axis cnc with taper setup as well and look to be an alright alternative.

[SimplyDifferent]

As for selling my legacy and buying the artisan, it is simply cost prohibitive right now. I don't have a huge demand for the entry doors, just wanted to be able to expand on that offering.

Right now I am tied up on kitchen jobs and entertainment centers. I want to get away for the huge jobs like that and concentrate on mantle, benches and so on. Really get into the Design and Carve projects that I think would expand my current customer base and give me that edge not seen in my area.

Your input and the input form the others on the forum has me leaning more toward a 3 axis with the smaller footprint. Large enough for mantles and benches but still could handle door panels rather than the whole door. That can come later.

Chatted by email with Ahren of CNC Router Parts and he advised me the 5 axis setup would be complicated and ultimately expensive. Guess I am going back to the drawing board and looking at the 24 x 72 R&P design.

[zool]

Couple comments:

1. Have you thought about building your CNC machine low to the ground so it could be stored under a work bench [maybe one you build especially for this] and then the work bench could be pulled up to the joists to get at the CNC machine.

2. As for a five-axis machine, as I told another poster here, the challenges and dilemmas do not increase linearly, they increase exponentially. I am on my second build which will be a five axis machine, some day. I have way lengthened the time to get it done.

The mechanical part is easy. Before you start down the path of five-axes make sure you have all the software in place and know how to use it [not just a little but a lot], and make sure it works seamlessly [CAD, CAM, controller]; make sure you have all the electronics in place [wired and the whole thing .. Every think about how many power supplies and what size??!!] and that all the electronics play nice together, consistently; make sure you give thought to how you are going to run the wiring [what size?] from the controller to the stepper motors [wires are like snakes to try and contain and control, they have a mind of their own..worse than cats]. And though it sounds small, make sure you know where you are going to place your home and limit switches, and where the wiring for them is going to run.

What exactly are you going to make? That will determine the type of frame materials, and of course the costs. One-piece frame welded or aluminum extrusions? Sit down and figure out how many nut and bolt sets it will take to assemble the aluminum extrusion and all the joining pieces and gussets. The nut and bolts sets will be hundreds [my new 3-axis has close to 650], for a five-axis machine .. over 1,000!!! easy .. maybe 1,500. Have you priced nuts and bolts lately?

Got skilled friends with lots of time? Welder, machinist, electrician, computer guy, electronics? Where are you going to buy all the stuff you will need? Is it close by or is it order and wait?

Got production demands? Family?

Enjoy banging your head against the wall? What about pulling your hair out?

You could have a lot of money invested into "stuff" [LOTS of stuff] that sits there a lot while you try and figure out the a design solution for something that you did not even foresee. And you will be stunned at how many other assemblies will have to be modified and/or discarded and/or replaced because of the final design of this unforeseen assembly.

And count on taking apart and putting together .. a bunch!

What CAD program? Think about Max 3D. Maybe Blender if you are going to design organic shapes. Or this, which is pretty cool for the price: ViaCAD 2D/3D v8 | PunchCAD | Official Site Or Rhino, there is Rhino CAM which integrates into Rhino, but is about $3000 on top of Rhino at $1000 Modeling tools for designers [got a nose bleed yet? ]

Which CAM program do you plan on using? Every look at CNC Tool kit? See cnc4free.org. Have you tried Cam Bam or MeshCam. SpurtCAM HeeksCAD

Mach3, EMC2 [like linux??!!!] or Dynomotions K-Flop?

Have you looked at DoughtyDrive for the B/C drive for the 4th and 5th axes? This is good stuff, but make sure you sit down before you read the email on what it will cost.

Thought about a rotary axis?

Don't take this as trying to discourage you, its not. Its just the introduction to the first chapter in the first volume of my three volume encyclopedia of errors!

And the hardest part is figuring out what the problems are and how to word the questions!!!

Its a lot of fun and you will enjoy the accomplishment, not just the whole machine, but solving all the little things, even if nobody else does except the rest of us nuts here on CNC Zone. Lunatics with credit cards! Worse that inmates having the keys.

And good luck..really!

[SimplyDifferent]

Zool - Thanks for the encouragement (?). I realize it is going to be quite a challenge - especially troubleshooting the bugs. The software I was looking at for 5 axis is from Legacy CNC Woodworking called CCMA4. They also recommend TurboCAD, and 3D Machinst for importing vectorart3d carving files for resizing and exporting as G Code.

Legacy CNC Woodworking - CCAM4 Software

Quite honestly it has been close to 30 years since I ran old school NC machines.

[zool]

Zool - Thanks for the encouragement (?). I realize it is going to be quite a challenge - especially troubleshooting the bugs. The software I was looking at for 5 axis is from Legacy CNC Woodworking called CCMA4. They also recommend TurboCAD, and 3D Machinst for importing vectorart3d carving files for resizing and exporting as G Code.

Legacy CNC Woodworking - CCAM4 Software

Quite honestly it has been close to 30 years since I ran old school NC machines.

CCMA4 is probably just for their machines. I did not see it on their price list. They are not famous for sharing. I did look at their machines for a while, and they are unique, but in the end found them overpriced and too proprietary at every turn. To use their software and designs you have to buy their router bits.

As for 3D Machinist: Did you read this: "This is not a trial version, as it works only with our models Vectric Ltd. and Vector Art 3D have collaborated to allow you to download the FULL version for FREE."

Vectric bought them a month or so ago. Vectic has great software. V-CarvePro plus Cut 3D would be a great package for you. Vectric - CNC Software Solutions - Wood Carving - Engraving - Signmaking - Routing - Machining

As for Turbo CAD, try viaCAD first. Even SketchUp would be a good place to start, easy to learn, tons of tutorials everywhere, and its free. I design 3D objects in SketchUp Pro, export them as STL's and use Cam Bam to generate the g-code, and with ease.

"Quite honestly it has been close to 30 years since I ran old school NC machines." Just a clue: A bit has changed.

To use a metaphor: You are going to find that you are just getting on the on-ramp.

[zool]

Look at what can be done with SketchUp: KitoRaupp's Channel - YouTube

[zool]

Ruby Scripts add extra functionality to SketchUp.
It is amazing what SketchUp can do with a few Ruby Scripts. Some can be quirky, however, the time invested will pay back in spades, especially for 3D designing.


Ruby Script Library Depot:
Home - Ruby Library Depot

Below is a description of Ruby Scripts from: Google SketchUp


Ruby is a programming language that anyone can use to write plugins (scripts) for Google SketchUp. Once installed, Ruby Scripts can add tools, simplify multi-step operations, and otherwise improve the way you work with SketchUp.

The good news is that you don't need to know anything about Ruby scripting (or programming in general) to use Ruby Scripts that other people have created. To get started, you can find some pre-made Ruby Scripts that we made, below. For links to even more, check out the Ruby Scripts section of our Resources page.

[SimplyDifferent]

Sorry for disappearing - going through pretests and presurgery education for a total knee replacement. Getting the replacement Dec. 19.

Thanks for the heads up about the Ruby Scripts. During my down time I will get a chance to learn sketch-up and check into the Ruby Scripts.

Thanks everyone for you input!!!

Dan