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IndustryArena Forum > Hobby Projects > RC Robotics and Autonomous Robots > Pick and Place Machine software project
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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    2392
    Quote Originally Posted by stewi View Post
    ...
    I know, you write the software for you and some other hobby users. However, if you want to go after the big guys and commercial market, you need to be better than their software.
    ...
    My thoughts on that is that it's better to pick a market segment and tailor the software to it.

    So it would be better to make the software cheap, and with a reasonable amount of functionality and trimmings to suit that price. If it starts to get expensive then in the hobby and small business end of the market people will look for other solutions like writing their own software, or getting Mach3/EMC to do it, or just writing g-code and using some g-code interpreter etc.

    So it should be reliable, simple, easy to use and inexpensive as a first release. Then there can always be an option to make a "pro" version at increased price and increased trimmings.

    I'm not interested in being a Beta tester etc as I made my own software, but I wanted to say I have no intention of releasing PC PNP software in any form, either freeware, shareware or commercial.

    SCSI- what's the deal with the commercial license on the vision library? Do you need to use that? It might be worth getting rid of that from the start so you have greater flexibility in features and greater profitability (or lower the price for increased sales). I was a 2D graphic programmer for a while back in the early 90's so if it's about the image recognition and decoding stuff that's really not that hard, nor is active managament of image parameters like contrast etc. Provided you can decode the vid signal to a raster image then the processing of centroid and rotation etc it not that hard to do. It's just a thought.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Nails View Post
    When you do, I think we should start a new thread called something like "P&P Head Design" so this thread can continue to focus on the software. Thanks.
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/rc_rob...ml#post1029644

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    119
    Quote Originally Posted by RomanLini View Post
    SCSI- what's the deal with the commercial license on the vision library? Do you need to use that? It might be worth getting rid of that from the start so you have greater flexibility in features and greater profitability (or lower the price for increased sales). I was a 2D graphic programmer for a while back in the early 90's so if it's about the image recognition and decoding stuff that's really not that hard, nor is active managament of image parameters like contrast etc. Provided you can decode the vid signal to a raster image then the processing of centroid and rotation etc it not that hard to do. It's just a thought.
    That's a valid suggestion. At this stage I simply need something that works out of the gate. The complexity of robust vision algorithms is such that it will require some significant amount of time to get right. Rotation invariant pattern matching with sub-pixel and sub-angle resolution is not simple at all. Perhaps in the future I will come up with something of my own, but for now going to stick with ready-built algorithms. I do use open-source AForge.NET library for very basic image processing and frame grabbing through Direct Show.

    -SCSI

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by scsi View Post

    I have been thinking about scripting and such and decided against it for now. It makes the system very complicated and I wanted it to get off the ground rather quickly. Still, I will implement some scripting in V2 for advanced feeder and tool changer support. Luckily the KFlop motion controller supports c-like scripting language and I will simply call user programs to perform certain actions.

    The complete hardware abstraction is still on the table for the future releases, but for now it's tightly coupled with KFlop.

    SCSI
    Machine Manager is nearly ready for beta and has complete support for IronPython/IronRuby scripting as well as custom user interfaces. It is designed to be hardware agnostic, so your handled if you ever wanted to implement other hardware configurations.

    Mostly just CNC stuff is implemented, but I would be happy to provide whatever is needed to make it a viable platform for this type of application.

    -Brad

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    119
    Quote Originally Posted by bradodarb View Post
    Machine Manager is nearly ready...
    Hi Brad - welcome to the thread!

    I should let everybody know that I'm using your KMotion_dotNet.dll in my project. It greatly simplifies things and was one of the reasons why I picked KFlop as a motion controller for the task.

    -scsi

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    147
    Hello scsi,

    No credit needed here, I only wrote the driver wrapper; what you are doing with it is way cool!

    Keep the videos coming, looking forward to seeing some of that multi spindle magic.


    -Brad

  7. #27
    I got a vid up of my new Samsung machine. I tried to capture some the head unit to help anyone designing their own head unit. I can take more detailed pics of anything on request. It's a beautiful machine, even though it's 10 yrs old.


    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcvxJ4AB2I4]Samsung CP20 Pick and Place (Chip Mounter) - YouTube[/ame]

    I also posted a video of my DIY PnP machine, which is conversion of my CNC machine. It's nice to get my CNC machine back!

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHnR_2wMMsg]OldPnP - YouTube[/ame]

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    88
    Drool....nice machine. Hope you sell enough product to have it pay for itself many times over. Congrats!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    147

    Component Pre-align

    Hello scsi

    Was just watching your video again, and was wondering if you had a data member for component angle in your Feeders?

    Thought was you could move your head to the the angle during your rapid move to the camera, and only make a small adjustment there.

    I know the cycle time savings would be small, but it seems like with an application such as this every ms helps.

    -Brad

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    119
    Quote Originally Posted by bradodarb View Post
    ...Thought was you could move your head to the the angle during your rapid move to the camera, and only make a small adjustment there...
    Brad, yes, I'm planning to optimize the kinematics quite bit. What you are proposing is possible with some caveats. First I need to confirm the accuracy of the alignment algorithms with objects being "pre-rotated" to the desired placement orientation. I know that the accuracy is very good when the object is presented at an angle that is only slightly different from the pre-learned pattern. Say withing 10-15 degrees. I have not yet tested the accuracy of rotation detection at angles close to 180 degrees and I don't expect it to be as good as in the "normal" presentation.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    38

    New Software

    SCSI,
    Looks fantastic. We bought the cheapest pick and place out there years ago, and the software is full of bugs, is not user configurable, limited to 4x control card, looses it's place at random and crashes... We've had to rebuild the machine/feeders several times, and the whole thing has just been a pain. I'm excited to see what happens with your software.

    A couple of questions.
    1. Will you be able to place QFN IC's?
    2. Will the webcams have enough resolution, or would I have to purchase like a microscope or something like that? Have you done testing on these?
    3. Why is it limited to 1000 CPH? If you had a faster machine could it place more, or is this about the limit of what a single nozzle can place per hour without flinging parts all over the place?
    4. What will you do about software updates?

    I love the flexability that you are trying to incorporate.
    Press on
    Dave

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    38

    New Software

    SCSI,
    Looks fantastic. We bought the cheapest pick and place out there years ago, and the software is full of bugs, is not user configurable, limited to 4x control card, looses it's place at random and crashes... We've had to rebuild the machine/feeders several times, and the whole thing has just been a pain. I'm excited to see what happens with your software.

    A couple of questions.
    1. Will you be able to place QFN IC's?
    2. Will the webcams have enough resolution, or would I have to purchase like a microscope or something like that? Have you done testing on these?
    3. Why is it limited to 1000 CPH? If you had a faster machine could it place more, or is this about the limit of what a single nozzle can place per hour without flinging parts all over the place?
    4. What will you do about software updates?

    I love the flexability that you are trying to incorporate.
    Press on
    Dave

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    119
    @speedydumpster - thanks for the nice words!

    Seeing the limitations and clearly horrible implementation in some low cost PPM software is what led me to the development of my own. The final straw was the DeskCNC controller running out of smoke which I couldn't get replacement for in time.

    It will be able to place leadless components such as QFN and BGA quite easily. The placement accuracy is mostly limited by the mechanical positioning accuracy and repeatability. In my experiments with 640x480 webcam resolution (320x240 practical after Bayer interpolation), I have not found any limitations with the motor resolution turned all the way down to 1 micron per step. The subpixel resolution of the algorithms that I'm using works amazingly well and I don't see a need for a megapixel camera. What may and will help is to have a proper optics on the webcam that would provide narrow field of view for smaller components, such as 0201.

    As far as CPH goes, the 1,000 figure is what I observe on my machine that is moving at 0.5m/s with 1.0G acceleration. Roughly half of the time is being spent in the tape advancement routine, which can be avoided if you use automatic feeders. With the velocties that you can achieve on a fast machine and with automatic feeders, I wouldn't be surprised to see the throughput going up to 1,500-2,000 CPH. Then, if you skip the vision alignment for passives, it can get you another 20-30%. Essentially, the throughput is mostly limited by the mechanical abilities of a particular machine and the types of feeders being used. There is also a factor of travel distance between the feeder, the camera and the PCB that needs to be taken into account. The vaccum prformance is also a factor. There are cofigurable time delays to allow for the vacuum to kick in and for the blow off puff to release the part. If the vacuum generator is strong enough and the vacuum line between the nozzle and the solenoid/generator is sufficiently short and has rather low volume, the pickup/release delay can be set to tens of miliseconds. Currently I'm using 100ms for those delays just to be sure. Large and heavy components can in fact get shifted on the nozzle if the acceleration/jerk is set too high. For that matter there is a mode in which I handle large IC's at a slower speed compared to the regular placement speeds.

    Software updates? What about them? They will be provided for bugfixes and minor feature tweaks in between major releases. For example, panelized boards and global/local fiducials will likely not make it into v1.0, but will get added later in v1.1

    Automatic feeders are alredy in per request of my first beta user. The software will support TTL GPIO and serial port commands to control automatic feeders.

    Regards,
    SCSI

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    0
    SCSI, would love to get you interested in my poll
    Wiki Pick & Place - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!
    I checked on website availabilities and could get wiki-pick, wikipickplace, wiki-pick-place, or wikiplacer, all .com.
    I'm certainly interested to get your software on this new machine, if at least I get some feedback from the poll.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    119
    Stewi - that's a great idea! Of course I'm interested.

    What performance targets (CPH) do you have in mind? What market segments are you looking at? Competing with SIPLACE could be a little bit tough...

    My software, as it sits right now, is not really ready to cross the ~5,000 cph boundary due to some architectural limitations. But then again, everything is possible in v2.0

    I like the wikiplacer.com name

    -scsi

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    119
    Stewi - I see in daedalus thread you are talking about "...re-focus on a small machine, likely single head, capable of 0201 to BGA, vision system, some feeders for under $10k". That is something I can do today and I'm totally onboard with that! We can introduce the turret head later...

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    0
    Great, with you on board, I feel comfortable this is a go.
    I registered wikiplacer.com as our domain, but don't have a host or website yet.

    I envision a modular approach, allowing to swap from single nozzle placement heads to multiple nozzle heads, or single gantry to dual gantries.
    Starting price for single gantry, single nozzle, mechanical component alignment should be as low as $ 5,000. However, the base machine can be upgraded to dual gantry, PCB conveyor, vision system and multiple nozzle heads in order to match or exceed current market leader machine's performances to a much lower price.

    I copy the shared design concept idea from Joe Justice, he shall forgive me.
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8jdx-lf2Dw]TEDxRainier - Joe Justice - WikiSpeed - YouTube[/ame]

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    119
    Stewi - before we go multi-gantry or multi-head, we need to nail down the closed loop positioning. This is something that is totally lacking in sub-$100k machines and can greatly improve reliability and pave the road to higher speeds.

    There is one great thing about KFLOP motion controller - it can take up to eight encoders and close the positioning loop properly.

    After that I would really like to see linear motors on X and Y axes. They will greatly simplify mechanical design and make machine lighter and more compact and reliable.

    -scsi

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    0
    I'm all for a closed loop system. However, we should make these decisions with all team members involved and will likely come to the same conclusion.
    Linear motors are still too expensive, unless we build our own.
    We will also likely get the costs down using air bearings rather then linear bearings.
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gK5yYfaN1Y]SKF Air Bearing Retrofit - YouTube[/ame]
    I have a very positive feeling about this project. At the end, we will have the best product to the lowest possible price.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    0
    The idea of individuals contributing to a larger scale design project isn't all that new. GT | Newsroom - Georgia Tech Research Institute (GTRI) Receives $1.5 Million to Create Online Collaborative Vehicle Design Capability
    If needed, I can contact Jack Zentner to advise on our project.

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