[LLDesigns]

I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on reverse engineering something for it to be made locally or cheaper. Does it matter if it comes from a big conglomerate or a small shop? What if the idea is to make it better? What is a good idea for what is appropriate versus what might be construed as ripping someone off? This original thought isn't to take someones idea and make money from it.

[eartaker]

You might want to check in on patent and copyright infringements before you reverse engineer and remake anything to be sold.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

If you're not selling it, there's no issue at all. And it's only an issue if the idea you're copying is patented, or otherwise protected, intellectual property. Even then, for you to even attract the attention of a patent-holder, you'd have to be making money from it for them to take the least interest, as to file a claim against you, they'd have to first prove damages (i.e. - lost income), and the potential recovery would have to be enough to more than cover their legal expenses (i.e. - BIG $$). There is nothing at all wrong with "copying" a commercial product or idea for your own personal use, it's done all the time.

Regards,
Ray L.

[TXFred]

The following is my opinion only, and I'm not a patent lawyer. And I'm speaking from the standpoint of a business that will be selling a product. As Ray says, if you make a single copy for yourself, you're pretty safe.

Reverse engineering, in its honest form, is the act of taking something apart, learning how it works, and using that understanding to design a better product.

If you take an item apart, copy all the critical dimensions, and make something that is mechanically identical, then you're just stealing.

But sometimes this has to happen. If you're making an aftermarket camshaft for a car, you have to measure the original in order to make one that meets the same specifications. Even if you change the cam profile, it still has to fit the factory cylinder head, so you will be copying the majority of the design from the factory camshaft.

If you're going to have a product for sale, then I think the big issue is the need to prove that your design is yours only, and any similarities to another products are coincidental.

To that end, you want to have some documentation of how you designed and developed the product. You have to assume that you will become successful. And all successful people get sued at some point. So make sure you're covered.

Frederic

[LLDesigns]

Say there is a part on a fourwheeler that is no longer in production in the US. There is an aftermarket part that a company makes and you want to duplicate it, would you?

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Say there is a part on a fourwheeler that is no longer in production in the US. There is an aftermarket part that a company makes and you want to duplicate it, would you?

If it was for my own car, absolutely. If to sell, it would depend on just how proprietary the part really is. In most cases, there is no protectable IP in such products, as every has been done before. What is there in that particular part that is truly unique, and had not been done before by someone else, even if not as well?

Regards,
Ray L.

[TXFred]

Say there is a part on a fourwheeler that is no longer in production in the US. There is an aftermarket part that a company makes and you want to duplicate it, would you?

In that scenario, I'd try to duplicate it.

I've made an exact copy of a mountain bike wheel spacer for a friend, because he lost one of a pair and the company was no longer in business. I have no moral dilemma there. It gave him a working bike, and didn't take away anybody's business.

In your scenario, you don't have the aftermarket part. If you did, you would not need to make another. You've seen pictures in the company's advertising and on their web page. You might have seen one installed on a four wheeler. But you don't have one to measure and copy.

You're not just copying the part. You still have to do your own designing. So you're in the clear.

Frederic

[photomankc]

Say there is a part on a fourwheeler that is no longer in production in the US. There is an aftermarket part that a company makes and you want to duplicate it, would you?

Sure. That's the whole reason there is an aftermarket in the first place.

[rpovey]

If there are no patents involved, you're fine.
Copyright doesn't apply.

If there are patents, I'd be extremely careful, patent law is complicated and designed to protect the designer to the point that the onus is on the defendant to prove that he did not infringe. Big companies settle patent suits even when they believe they should win because the cost of defense/failure is so high.

[photomankc]

I'm obviously not a patent lawyer but as I understand it you can patent a machine or mechanism but not the indiviual parts of it. I'd feel fine making X part to fit, but making the whole device could be an issue. Also remember, courts can be funny about damage. The fact that you deprived them of a sale to you by making the product for you could be looked at as damage. I'd be far more worried developing software than physical parts. The crap USPTO allows in the software world makes it a minefield.

[Starleper1]

TXFred

Reverse engineering, in its honest form, is the act of taking something apart, learning how it works, and using that understanding to design a better product.

Very well put. Sometimes I think people get out of hand and get sue happy with situations where you take a basic design of a part/mechanism and improve upon it, making it better in which ever way you see fit.

I think it's a great thing when someone re-engineers an already great idea to make it better. It helps push the envelope of what's possible and keeps people thinking.

But like others have said if you are making exact copies of a part purely to make income off it. That's wrong, and I would definitely consider that "stealing"

In your four wheeler situation though, I'd say your safe.

[LongRat]

I'm obviously not a patent lawyer but as I understand it you can patent a machine or mechanism but not the indiviual parts of it. I'd feel fine making X part to fit, but making the whole device could be an issue. Also remember, courts can be funny about damage. The fact that you deprived them of a sale to you by making the product for you could be looked at as damage. I'd be far more worried developing software than physical parts. The crap USPTO allows in the software world makes it a minefield.

You can patent parts of a mechanism. Patents apply to ideas that are novel and not obvious evolutions of existing ideas as perceived by an expert in the field. That part is somewhat subjective and that's where sometimes you take a risk. My understanding is that patenting software is actually more difficult.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I'm obviously not a patent lawyer but as I understand it you can patent a machine or mechanism but not the indiviual parts of it. I'd feel fine making X part to fit, but making the whole device could be an issue. Also remember, courts can be funny about damage. The fact that you deprived them of a sale to you by making the product for you could be looked at as damage. I'd be far more worried developing software than physical parts. The crap USPTO allows in the software world makes it a minefield.

A patent MUST spell out, very explicitly, in the "claims" section, EXACTLY what aspects of your design are unique. If it ain't in the claims, it ain't protected. The claims may cover one part, or a thousand parts of a complex mechanism. It all depends on where the unique intellectual property is embodied.

NOBODY, NO COMPANY would EVER sue an individual for making a copy of anything for their own personal use. The cost, even using in-house counsel, would so FAR outweigh the benefit, it simply would never happen. And patent suits take YEARS to even make it to court. And any damages awarded would be limited to the value of that alleged lost sale - i.e. - mouse nuts, unless you're talking about some incredibly expensive, esoteric part (and what use would an individual have for that?). Worst case, you'd get a nasty letter, ordering you to cease and desist. But, again, in the case of an individual making something for his own use, it simply won't ever happen.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Geof]

.....But like others have said if you are making exact copies of a part purely to make income off it. That's wrong, and I would definitely consider that "stealing"....

I think even this is subject to shades of grey. If I am making a product and selling it for many, many times the cost of manufacture do I really have a legitimate complaint if someone copies it exactly and sells it at a lower price? In the absence of competition it could be argued I am "stealing" excessive profit from my customers. In the presence of competition I have to charge a more 'honest' price.

But there is at least one proviso: If someone copies my product exactly and does not make it clear that it is NOT my product they are stealing my reputation. In many countries this is called 'passing off' and is illegal.

[rrobb]

In the absence of competition it could be argued I am "stealing" excessive profit from my customers.

BULLSPIT!

The concept of "exsessive profit" can only exist in a world where people deal with each other by means of force. If the profit was excessive... the customer wouldn't pay it.

That's the beauty of a free market: Both parties to a transaction, by thier own standards, are better off than if they had not made the transaction.

Cory

[erd39030]

"...NOBODY, NO COMPANY would EVER sue an individual for making a copy of anything for their own personal use..."

So what about the recording companies suing a the parents of a teenager who downloaded some .MP3?

[Geof]

BULLSPIT! Cory

I did say 'could be'. There is no reason to get insulting.

[erd39030]

We have this 20 year old Haas VF-1 wich haven't worked in the past 10 years.

I am suspecting that the EPROMs got corrupted.

Haas can't provide me with original EPROMS, but can sell me a whole new control.

What if I find somebody that has the same machine and got a copy of his EPROM?

[rpovey]

We have this 20 year old Haas VF-1 wich haven't worked in the past 10 years.

I am suspecting that the EPROMs got corrupted.

Haas can't provide me with original EPROMS, but can sell me a whole new control.

What if I find somebody that has the same machine and got a copy of his EPROM?

Ethically or legally?
Personally I have no issue with the ethics of it, but the legalities are dependent on the original sales/licensing agreement with Haas.
If he sells you the ROM it's certainly copyright infringement.
Most likely given the age of the machine I'd guess it's a huge grey area, since I'd bet the sales agreement didn't clearly state the software licensing terms. So if it went to court as I understand it, it the decision would be based on what a reasonable person would expect. Which means a complete crapshoot.

[rrobb]

I did say 'could be'. There is no reason to get insulting.

I meant no offence, and I'm sorry if I insulted you.

I just get upset when the notion is put forth that profit is somehow wrong or unfair.

There are only three ways to deal with your fellow man:

1) As Equals - Give me because I offer value for value. I'm your peer.

i.e. money


2) As Weaklings - Give me because I'm bigger than you. I'm a bully.

i.e. guns


3) As Superiors - Give me because I'm weaker than you. I'm a beggar.

i.e. welfare




I'll leave it to each of you to decide which you think is most fair.


Cory


PS. Sorry for the thread jack.