[Mountaincraft]

I have to put together a quote for a couple outdoor signs for the local community bank...

Currently, the one I'll be replacing is made from fir or possibly cedar... hard to tell because it's painted and rotted (which leads me to believe it's fir and not cedar)..

The big sign will be about 14-16" high by 96" wide and will be free hanging under an eave.. It will get painted and clear coated... the small sign will be about 12" wide and 18" high and mounted flat on the surface of the building, also painted and clear coated.. Both signs will be exposed to the elements including full south facing mountain sun in the summer, and snow, rain, wind, and sub freezing temps in the winter..

I was originally thinking about using extira, laminating 2 layers of 3/4" material together for a 1.5" thick sign.. But someone told me that their only experience with extira was that it warped on them... This might have been that they had to order an individual sheet from their local yard, and it wasn't shipped/stored in a large stack/pallet like normal... Unfortunately, I'd have to order mine the same way as no one local stocks the stuff...

So now, I'm thinking maybe I should go with a hardwood.. again, maybe laminating two 3/4" layers (with the grain at 90 degrees) together and carving that...

There's also cedar and redwood, but I'm concerned with blowouts carving soft wood.. I've never tried to carve either but I've tried pine carvings, and it seems to chip and blow out easily on my CNC router mill.. Hardwoods carve much cleaner.. And it seems that a composite like extira would carve the best...

Anyways, that's all the background info.. I'm interested in the thoughts , advice, and ideas from those who have done a lot of this sort of stuff...

This is my first sign, it's right in the middle of town and I want to get it right.. As it will be a lasting advertisement for 'me' as well as the bank.. and I want it to speak well of both...

Thanks,
Mark

[Joe Crumley]

I'd suggest you get some help. The project, as you describe it, isn't the kind a person should take on for the first time.There are at least a dozen tricky hidden traps to fall through.

You can purchase quality redwood sign panels here. www.lewisredwood.com/sign_blanks.htm

Layout and design is what this craft is all about. I'd suggest you look at the some of the many good sign companies and choose one for design assistance.

Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company, Norman, Oklahoma, SandBlasted Signs, Sign Painter, Redwood Signs

[Mountaincraft]

I'd suggest you get some help. The project, as you describe it, isn't the kind a person should take on for the first time.There are at least a dozen tricky hidden traps to fall through.

You can purchase quality redwood sign panels here. www.lewisredwood.com/sign_blanks.htm

Layout and design is what this craft is all about. I'd suggest you look at the some of the many good sign companies and choose one for design assistance.

Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company, Norman, Oklahoma, SandBlasted Signs, Sign Painter, Redwood Signs

We're a small very small town.. That just isn't going to happen.. But with many years of experience in graphic design and 3D computer animation, and more than 40 years experience in construction, I 'think' I'm up to the task of copying and hanging their existing signs... If not, they won't get charged for it... LOL

We are in a very economically devastated part of the country, and trust me when I tell you, that there is no room in the budget to be paying third parties.. It's a very simple Logo, and they have the artwork already in vector format, but if not, it would be a piece of cake to draw one out in Illustrator... IOW, layout is not an issue, that is already done... It's 3 words and a border... texture in between...

I don't expect this to be any different to layout and carve of any of the other stuff I've done, just bigger...

I'm just looking for advice on materials... But thanks for the link on redwood blanks.. That being said, I can have my buddy cut me any size blank up to 36" x 32' from redwood or cedar grown locally (there's an entire forest right out my back gate, not to mention all the trees on my own property) on his lumber mill.. In fact I'm sure he has plenty that has been seasoned for a couple years...
:cheers:

[Joe Crumley]

I admire your willingness and courage.

As you know all wood will shrink and expand with moisture and temperature. For that reason it's best to use kiln dried wood. For those who don't know, wood that has been temperature dried forces the wood sap to crystalize. This helps the wood to be more stable and reduces cracks and splits. Most of us making a living with sandblasted and carved signs use Vertical Grain. That is an essential to keep warping to a minimum.

I'm sure you are well aware of all this.

This is an example of HDU and woodgrain background. I price this kind of work by the square foot. They run between $125 to $150 per square.

Please show your progress with this project. It all starts with layout and design. I'm wishing you the best.




Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company, Norman, Oklahoma, SandBlasted Signs, Sign Painter, Redwood Signs

[Mountaincraft]

Joe.. Thanks..

Nice sign.. What are the inlaid letters made from?
This sign will be far less complex than that one..
What software are you using?


I've been looking at HDU...

Couple potential problems with it that I see.. maybe you can weigh in on that..

Weight.. This sign will be hanging from eye hooks at the entrance to a foyer... It will be exposed to wind... what is a safe way to embed hangers in the stuff?.. Does it play nice with epoxy? Is it dense enough that lags will hold?

I understand that I can have wood laminated to the back to stiffen it.. but I'm concerned with weight.. This is one of the reasons I was considering laminating two sheets of extira.. It's pretty heavy and will not blow around as easily..

The other is cost.. I have to have the price on this submitted by tuesday, and everything will be closed till then.. So I do not know how to bid the HDU stuff..

The bank has to submit all of their 'costs' at the beginning of the year for the entire upcoming year.. So even though I have freedom of when I can do the job, The price for it has to be in then...

So maybe if I price it based on the extira material, the HDU will fall within that or at least close, and then I can consider using it... But I suspect that it will not...

Finally, I've never worked with the stuff.. I'm thinking that it will carve very nice.. But I supposed I could order some 'scrap' pieces to play with...

How is that stuff in regards to dust while carving? Does it play nice with the vacuum system? Does it cling due to static electricity? How is it in regards to 'sanding?' Does it come flat, or does it need surfacing prior to carving?

The sign I'm carving has three words in script... a date, and a simple border.. with wood grain in the flats (which makes things easier IMO).. Three colors of paint...

[Joe Crumley]

My thoughts:

I only use HDU when detail is needed. At one time I used it for regular construction but it takes lots, and lots of care. It's absolutely not good for hanging signs unless it's carried by a metal frame.



Extira a too heavy.

I'd suggest considering PVC. It too is heavy but I don't know how much of the background needs to be removed. Without seeing the proposed sign there is no way to tell. The lightest and toughest would be clear heart redwood but it's costly.

There is the possability you could use rough cedar. It's one of my favorites and the least expensive. But I just don't know. I'd shoot for that. It's my cheapest type of sign and retails for $65.00 per square foot not including installation.

The letters you asked about were made from extira.

Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company, Norman, Oklahoma, SandBlasted Signs, Sign Painter, Redwood Signs

[ger21]

So maybe if I price it based on the extira material, the HDU will fall within that or at least close, and then I can consider using it... But I suspect that it will not...

HDU prices vary by density. The more dense (harder) it is, the more it costs. Don't be surprised if it's 3-5 times more expensive than Extira.
Here's a method for attaching hangers in it.
WEST SYSTEM - projects - Bonding fasteners in high-density urethane foam

If you have a few hours (days?) to kill, read through this entire blog, to see incredible uses of sign foam. There are heavy duty mounting methods buried in there as well.
ENROUTE ADVENTURES: December 2011

[Joe Crumley]

Gerry,

Thanks for chiming in.

Dan is an excellent craftsman but uses only 30lb and 40lb HDU.

I'm glad you posted the methods Wes Epoxy has suggested. I'll be posting further on a few more refined ways to secure HDU.

Keeping HDU flat has always been a problem. It will warp! It requires stiffening up when spanning a distance. But it's a wonderful material for holding detail. The only poor materials on the market is precision board in 15lb density. I'd stay away from it..The best we've found is Duna made by Corafoam. Their 15lb is close to precision's 40lb



This is one of my favorite and most efficient sign materials. I price this kind of sign out at $65 a square foot with a $400 dollar minimum. Some of these are holding up well after twenty five years. I can post a few photo's later.

Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company, Norman, Oklahoma, SandBlasted Signs, Sign Painter, Redwood Signs

[Mountaincraft]

Joe, is that oiled cedar?

[Joe Crumley]

Yes, it's rough cedar purchased at Lowe's. I often look for boards with lots of knots and defects. This is the opposite look you get from redwood or HDU.

When I first opened my shop, thirty years ago, cedar was my main material. Back then I'd route out the letters and brush in the color. I seldom used clear a coat because it wouldn't last. Today I use Sikkens stains. It has plenty of UV protection and will last several years.

These techniques do not give a finished look. It's gives a rustic appearance. My horse ranches, vets housing additions and farms are clients. It's not for all customers but when it is, good money can be made. As previously stated, these go for $60.00 per square foot. Does not include any installation, permits or taxes. I have no idea about your needs or the customers expectation

The letters are cut from pre-coated DiBond and plopped into position.

Good luck on your project. I think I'd better call it quits on these posts.





These are the fastest and one of the longest lasting signs we make. Most of the time I don't glue up in panel form. They are bolted to 2”X6” cleates.

Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company, Norman, Oklahoma, SandBlasted Signs, Sign Painter, Redwood Signs

[Mountaincraft]

What I'm most jealous of, is that nice steel workshop!
:cheers:

[Joe Crumley]

What ever happened to this project?

Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company, Norman, Oklahoma, SandBlasted Signs, Sign Painter, Redwood Signs

[underdog]

Joe,

Nice website and beautiful work! Can you suggest a website that has a variety of sign materials like the HDU and etxira you mentioned? Also what do you recommend as an adhesive for the HDU? I'm supposing that the 3- and 4-color signs are different colors of the same material, but the weather is relentless and is tough on adhesives that are outdoors!

from Pittsburgh

[Joe Crumley]

I wish I knew a location to send you to for all sign materials. Wood materials come from lumberyards while some of the better paints are at paint outlets. The same goes for sandblasting equipment and media. Right now it's very much a hit and miss. I'd suggest you look in your area for a wholesale sign supply.

We use epoxy for most outdoor signs. All brands I've tried work equally well.

Good luck.

Joe Crumley

[Mountaincraft]

What ever happened to this project?

Joe Crumley
Norman Sign Company, Norman, Oklahoma, SandBlasted Signs, Sign Painter, Redwood Signs

Hi Joe, we've been talking back and forth for a few months nailing down design and cost, and are now ready to move ahead...

I am currently going back and forth between a couple mounting methods..

The sign is to be approximately 92"w x 44.5"h.. 1" thick sign foam, but am in process of pushing them to spend the extra money to get 1.5" thick.... (if not 2")..

Anyways, I am looking at having a piece of 18ga steel plasma cut to just slightly smaller than the sign, with two 1" tall 'flaps' that fold out at 90 degrees from the steel along about 80% of it's length for rigidity.. at 2 locations on each of these flaps there is to be tabs extended for mounting.. these will mate to steel brackets on the building surface where they will be bolted.. the steel will be expoxied to the back of the sign using west systems 2 part epoxy or similar... the brackets will each have three 1/2" lags glued and screwed through the building surface into framing studs 24" apart...

I am concerned about the steel 'flexing' though... So I am looking at an option I saw when I first started looking into this of using a 'corrugated' or 'channeled' steel as a backing... but now cant find any examples or suggestions on type, dimensions of channels and metal thickness....

Looking at using oil based industrial paints matching the customer spec'd spot colors...

The only thing remaining before they send me a deposit on Friday is to give them a drawing of the proposed mounting method and then send them an invoice....

Advice?

[Mountaincraft]

Here's a general idea of what I had in mind....

But if I can find some channeled steel to use instead of the sheet metal, I will likely tack some steel angle to it and mount that to the tabs.....

[Joe Crumley]

1" HDU is good.

I'd epoxy it to 3/4" MDO and roll a couple of coats of of epoxy on the sides and back.

A couple of aluminum brackets top and bottom and it will last for years. You're making too much of the installation. This method works great.



On this panel we went through the face with lag bolts.

[Mountaincraft]

What is MDO? Probably something else they don't sell here in Redding.... I'm already having to drive more than 200 miles each way to get the sign foam...

I have to get it off the wall far enough to fit over a protruding facia at the bottom of the second story wall...

I was originally going to laminate it to extira... but decided wood products were not the best way, and that it would be too heavy....

1" HDU is good.

I'd epoxy it to 3/4" MDO and roll a couple of coats of of epoxy on the sides and back.

A couple of aluminum brackets top and bottom and it will last for years. You're making too much of the installation. This method works great.



On this panel we went through the face with lag bolts.

[Joe Crumley]

MDO is Medium Density Overlay.

That's better than Extira. It's too heavy and soft. Call your local sign supply and if they don't have MDO they can tell you where to go.

[Mountaincraft]

Okay, I've carved the sign foam and am almost through with the paint..

I bought a sheet of 3/4" MDO (paper both sides) for backing and will probably cut it later today...

I have a couple questions... I'm planning on using gorilla glue to attach the MDO to the sign foam, because it's waterproof, and retains a slight 'flexibility'... but I need to seal the MDO..

I'm thinking of wiping gorilla glue on the cut edges and then sanding it before mating it to the sign... is this an adequate method for sealing the edges (will be painted with oil based enamel afterwards)?...

I also will be painting the backing with the same paint I used on the sign (oil based industrial enamel).. Do I need to 'prep or seal' the two paper surfaces of the backing in anyway before gluing the one side and then painting the other?

I'll post pictures when it's all done..

Thanks,
Mark