[miljnor]

that's a cool story man.

Personally I don't care what laws are passed, I'm old school and if you buy something you own it. Do with it what you please as long as it doesn't interfere with the well being or free will of others directly. (IE physically hurting someone or preventing them from acting on their own free will.

anything else is merely some form of unwanted meddling in others affairs.

[gizmo_454]

personally I think that since everything is already in the machine then the options should be part of the machine package , its not as though someone needs to come into the shop and install extra hardware .
m19 being an option is outright stupid

I have to agree, but disagree. I agree because if the manufacturer can afford to give the technology with every machine and just turn it off, then why not just turn it on in the first place?

On the other hand, it is technology that costs money to produce and support, so yes, they should charge for it. But how much are you, (we), willing to pay for a machine? Haas' machines are generally at a lower price point because they sell you a base machine, in this case a mill with a spindle, x, y, and z axes. If you want Rigid Tapping, it's extra. M19, it's extra. Etc, etc, etc.

Go buy a Citizen swiss machine. Every option that can be on in the control, is on when you buy the machine. But hold on to your wallet...A 20mm machine starts out at $120K with a barfeeder. 32mm machine starts out at $225K with a barfeeder. Our SL-10 lathe's base price was what? $49K?

I think a good share of us would agree, from a bottom line price point is concerned, we like to be able to pick and choose the options we want on our machine.

As for the "unlock" problem that started this thread, I can see how unlocking options, while morally questionable, may work, unlocking the time limit on the machine would be next to impossible. The machine outputs either a 4 or 5 digit code, to which there is only one correct response, also being either a 4 or 5 digit code. The outputted code is supposed to be random. That being said, from 0000 to 99999, there are 100,000 possible codes the machine can choose to display. For any one code it displays on the screen, there are again 100,000 possibilities. That means that the chances of hitting the write answer, assuming you have the patients to search for the correct code, is extremely slim. We are talking approximately 10 billion combinations. Assuming 1 code per second, and it took until the 10 billionth code to find the correct one, (since we all know it's always darn near the last possible combo to try before we find the right one), it would take approximately 2,777,777.8 hours to find the right code. Even if you could enter 10 codes per second, you'd still be looking at 277,777.8 hours to find the right code. That's roughly 31.7 years at 10 codes per second, 24/7/52.:drowning:

I'm sorry, I'll keep paying for my machine by making parts. It'll only take 5 years to pay for!:wee:

Mike

[b1kmpn95]

I have to agree, but disagree. I agree because if the manufacturer can afford to give the technology with every machine and just turn it off, then why not just turn it on in the first place?

On the other hand, it is technology that costs money to produce and support, so yes, they should charge for it. But how much are you, (we), willing to pay for a machine? Haas' machines are generally at a lower price point because they sell you a base machine, in this case a mill with a spindle, x, y, and z axes. If you want Rigid Tapping, it's extra. M19, it's extra. Etc, etc, etc.

Go buy a Citizen swiss machine. Every option that can be on in the control, is on when you buy the machine. But hold on to your wallet...A 20mm machine starts out at $120K with a barfeeder. 32mm machine starts out at $225K with a barfeeder. Our SL-10 lathe's base price was what? $49K?

I think a good share of us would agree, from a bottom line price point is concerned, we like to be able to pick and choose the options we want on our machine.

As for the "unlock" problem that started this thread, I can see how unlocking options, while morally questionable, may work, unlocking the time limit on the machine would be next to impossible. The machine outputs either a 4 or 5 digit code, to which there is only one correct response, also being either a 4 or 5 digit code. The outputted code is supposed to be random. That being said, from 0000 to 99999, there are 100,000 possible codes the machine can choose to display. For any one code it displays on the screen, there are again 100,000 possibilities. That means that the chances of hitting the write answer, assuming you have the patients to search for the correct code, is extremely slim. We are talking approximately 10 billion combinations. Assuming 1 code per second, and it took until the 10 billionth code to find the correct one, (since we all know it's always darn near the last possible combo to try before we find the right one), it would take approximately 2,777,777.8 hours to find the right code. Even if you could enter 10 codes per second, you'd still be looking at 277,777.8 hours to find the right code. That's roughly 31.7 years at 10 codes per second, 24/7/52.:drowning:

I'm sorry, I'll keep paying for my machine by making parts. It'll only take 5 years to pay for!:wee:

Mike

I would like to clarify that the 'unlock' codes that I referred to in the first post were not referring to the 800 hour time limits. It was referring to feature specific access/unlock codes. In my case, getting back my rigid tap code.

[gizmo_454]

My math is a little under estimated above. We are really looking at 110,000 possible outputs, and 110,000 possible answers each. I am not doing the math again, as I think we all get the point!!!

;p
Mike

[neilw20]

And locks are only to keep honest people out.
I wonder if software time bombs are illegal? (if you weren't advised and signed to accept them?)

[dertsap]

Go buy a Citizen swiss machine. Every option that can be on in the control, is on when you buy the machine. But hold on to your wallet...A 20mm machine starts out at $120K with a barfeeder. 32mm machine starts out at $225K with a barfeeder. Our SL-10 lathe's base price was what? $49K?

I think a good share of us would agree, from a bottom line price point is concerned, we like to be able to pick and choose the options we want on our machine.



Mike

I agree but give that haas every option and it still won't be playing in the same ballpark , they simply are of the same quality which is why they are a more affordable choice to begin with
As I stated before , the options are cheap enough , but to make a standard m19 code or macro's optional is stupid ,

[gizmo_454]

One of these days, I will learn what those pesky macros are all about that everyone keeps yammering about! I have an idea what they are, just no idea as to how to use them.

Not trying to be contradictory, but I do believe the "standard M19" is "standard". You can call M19 in a program and it will orient the spindle...to tool change angle. It is the part where you can call out individual degrees that is optional.

In any case...to be, or not to be....hmmmmmm....

Mike

[dertsap]

I've tried m19 on a couple of the machines and no luck , i'm sure that i saw that as a 500 dollar option ?
as for macro's they're more wonderful than pesky , i'm not a big macro guy but i love macro variables along with g52 shifts for programming multi part fixtures , and for using macro sub routines to calculate shifts for rotary table movements
Macro variables are a thing that once you get used to utilizing them , you'll be using them when you can

[WGJ]

It is possible, but not for the average guy. You can actually tie into the processor board (with solder...not for the faint-hearted, and after mapping out the circuit board with an oscilloscope to learn the process map of the board) and with a repetitive subroutine from a secondary computer, attempt every combo under the sun, 24/7. It is called the "brute force method". I know someone who did it to a 2004 (or so) toolroom mill. Sure, it is illegal. His logic was the proverbial "I bought the machine so I own all of it including it's withheld abilities". I personally am not educated in that field enough (computer science) to attempt such a venture...but brute force is a definite method.

[djc1965]

LOL! The amount of downtime you have not making chips will cost you much more than if you just simply paid for the option. That is unless you have a "friend" at an HFO who can "Help" you out.

[el mecanico]

this has been very informational for me, but its very possible and are people out there doing it allready. so if you want to do it go for it its your machine. you own it its yours unless your leasing.

[mejasont]

If you buy a secondhand machine and cant repair it because its locked access, then you would know why the chap wants to break the code.
hass have not done it out of the goodness of their hearts, they have done it it take your hard earned cash. it is not dissimilar to your cars can bus where a mechanic has to buy a code to diagnose your car. This is identical to whats happening to John Deere (tractors). farmers in 13 states now have joined up to force John Deere to unlock the computer in the tractor to allow them to maintain their own machines. The courts in 3 states have stated that john deere have to unlock their systems as its un reasonable to prevent a customer from finding a more cost effective repair when its their livelyhood.
Yes a compant is allowed to protect their intelectual property but is inot allowed to prevent another person from making a living.. As you guys in the states say wake up and smell the coffee, the revolution has started. Some of you obviously have more money than sense and think you get value for money from your service provider, either that or you dont have a clue how to fix your own machines. The tide is turning.

[mejasont]

Its not ilegal. take a car for example you are not told how to drive it or that you shouldnt hit it with a sledge hammer, buth of which would void your warrenty but not ilegal. What would be illegal is to sell your list of codes, that infringes copyright. Incidently a contract you have never signed or agreed with you simply bought there product, were you asked to agreed to an EULA like you did when you installed microsoft OS on your PC. didnt think so. They smiled and took your cash then it arrived in a box. As you are not hacking the machine in order that you can build another machine as a competitor, i think they would find it hard to prove an infringement of copyright. The only reason you would loose a case in court is because they would have 10 expensive lawyers and you would not be able to fight them - not because they were right. Corporations have now found ways of taking our money without providing a service or much in the way of a product. Take HP for example who want you to buy your printer ink on a monthly contract whilst also over inflating the price of ink (they are not alone). Microsoft who wants everyone on the cloud storage and access to apps so in future they can charge for access to your files. we know that securitywise your files on the internet is one step closer to becomming hacked or made public, if your PC is at home and is switched off most of the time it makes it alot harder to access. Microsoft did accidentaly give away a whole bunch of credit card details of its gaming customers recently. Just because we get threatened by big companies using legal jargon does not mean its actually ilegal. we should howevr have the choice. I was about to buy a secondhand Haas VF1 until i found out that it would cost mye as much again to overhaul it especially since (the age of the machine)haas no longer would support it, parts would be near impossible to find and bloody expensive + export from us to uk. they must wonder why their market share is taking a hit from Europe and the Far East - Its because you are greedy - muppets.

[b1kmpn95]

Its not ilegal. take a car for example you are not told how to drive it or that you shouldnt hit it with a sledge hammer, buth of which would void your warrenty but not ilegal. What would be illegal is to sell your list of codes, that infringes copyright. Incidently a contract you have never signed or agreed with you simply bought there product, were you asked to agreed to an EULA like you did when you installed microsoft OS on your PC. didnt think so. They smiled and took your cash then it arrived in a box. As you are not hacking the machine in order that you can build another machine as a competitor, i think they would find it hard to prove an infringement of copyright. The only reason you would loose a case in court is because they would have 10 expensive lawyers and you would not be able to fight them - not because they were right. Corporations have now found ways of taking our money without providing a service or much in the way of a product. Take HP for example who want you to buy your printer ink on a monthly contract whilst also over inflating the price of ink (they are not alone). Microsoft who wants everyone on the cloud storage and access to apps so in future they can charge for access to your files. we know that securitywise your files on the internet is one step closer to becomming hacked or made public, if your PC is at home and is switched off most of the time it makes it alot harder to access. Microsoft did accidentaly give away a whole bunch of credit card details of its gaming customers recently. Just because we get threatened by big companies using legal jargon does not mean its actually ilegal. we should howevr have the choice. I was about to buy a secondhand Haas VF1 until i found out that it would cost mye as much again to overhaul it especially since (the age of the machine)haas no longer would support it, parts would be near impossible to find and bloody expensive + export from us to uk. they must wonder why their market share is taking a hit from Europe and the Far East - Its because you are greedy - muppets.

It’s been 8 years, but I noticed this post drew some attention over the past year. I own both an old VF5 and TL2, and was able to build some quick electronics 8 years ago and hook it up to an Arduino to unlock all codes on both machines. This includes rigid tap on both, and indexing on the TL2.

I am just a home hobbyist, so this is definitely not something somebody would want to bother with if they had to have downtime and not making chips.

In my case, it was a fun little project, and unlocked features that I never would have paid for by investing about 5 hours of time, $25 in materials, and a couple decades of programming/electronics know-how.

Greg

[Daft]

In the US, the DMCA says "No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title".

This seems to cover the public sale/offering of services. It doesn't seem to deal with people tackling the actions themselves.

As for Canada, there is currently no DMCA equivalent yet. Bill C-11 is similar, and may be passed soon. I'm a software developer by trade, and the 'can it be done' question is what drove me to put together a quick code generator to get my rigid tap function back after I lost the code.

I'm sure I could have called Haas to get the code back (possibly for a cost since it's so old), but what's the fun in that? Nothing was stolen, and I was able to satisfy my curiosity.

I tried to private message you. I was curious your methods. i bought a couple old haas machines and would like to enable dnc on 1 and ridgid taping on another. thanks.

[Kenny Duval]

And that's where the water gets murky. If you can figure it out on your own then good on you. Asking him to provide you the details of how he did it is where the questions of legality would start.

[mejasont]

And that's where the water gets murky. If you can figure it out on your own then good on you. Asking him to provide you the details of how he did it is where the questions of legality would start.

But there would also be no need for forums like this either, you would certainly loose your stage my friend as would many others.
i would like to have the gentlemans email puerly to ask after his family and congratulate him on being so wise amd wonderful.

This lock down pay per view society thing is bad and leads to the Orwelian society where we all become clones working for the system with no freedom to explore or develop.
when you see the Darwin images of man starting off as an ape through the ages you must also have seen the ones that continue and return back to ape
as soon as 2030 we could all end up being like circus performing monkeys. The leftist movement is gaining ground and their ambitions will make this happen sooner rather than later.

Haas-els Licencing stratergy is based on one thing you make you pay, its no longet just a tool its a cash machine for Haas. I mean when did rigid tapping become an add-on the cheap Asian machines have it as standard, even Tormach offer it on some later machines. 4th axis yeah ok an add-on but if the machine is capable and set up for it already why an unlock code to enable it. You have obviously already paid for the hardware and the controller already posses the software. Ie you have paid for it already. You dont thisk they sell stripped down controllers and give away hardware as a carrot do you. So $2k to get it unlocked is a bit naughty in my opinion.
Im in the market for a machine at the moment and Haas-els pay per view attitude is turning me off as a buyer/invester in their products.

One could argue that it you have a machine out of support thats still working after 23 years you are also breaking the agreement with Haas, They dont want you to keep old machines going hat why you cant get parts from anywhere else but Haas. If they want you to get a new machine they can simply refuse to sell you a part. They cant claim to have any sort of green policy if they make their machines throw away, thats probably why they reluctantly sell spares for older machines. Not every one buys a $250k machine when they first start out so finding ways to circumvent the lock codes to keep older machines going and help the human race by encouraging new starters into this skill short area of industry is good for Haas. A person who has an old machine which get tierd will look to replace it with another model from Haas as thy will love the brand and will consider buying the same before any other..

Stop - pay per view

[Kenny Duval]

Maybe you took that the wrong way. I am good with you doing anything you want to your machine. I was only pointing out that the current legality issues may be brought in with the sharing of information about how to do it.

[machinehop5]

...cheaper to steal than ..develdown/up 360

easter bunnys eggs

[machinehop5]

...hard to master aka