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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    75

    Vector Drive??????

    Hello All,
    My 2008 VF4 started acting up 3-4 months ago. Kicking up a #648 DC Bus Shorted alarm for one. If we let it set for 10-15 minutes after power up the alarm would clear and be fine. Now it takes 1.5-2 hours before the alarm will clear. It also gives alarms 649-DC buss undervoltage, 292 320V power supply, & 160 low voltage. HFO says I need a Vector drive. Any thoughts?
    Voltage is fine & transformer taps are correct for the voltage.
    Just don't want to spend $2400 if I don't have to,
    Thanks
    Murphdog

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    17
    Hello Murphdog,

    I do believe that your machine has a bad Vector Drive. The alarms that you mentioned are related to the DC buss voltage from the Vector Drive. These alarms are indicating that the DC buss voltage is too low for the machine to operate. The DC buss voltage output range is 305 – 355 with 325-330 DC being the nominal voltage.

    I'll give you a few things to take a look at. You said that you checked the voltages and transformer taps. Nice. This is always the first thing you want to do when troubleshooting. Power up the machine and go to diagnostics (Press PARAM DGNOS twice) and then press the down arrow once to go to inputs 2 in diagnostics. You should see the DC buss voltage near the center of the screen. You said that that it takes 1.5-2 hours before the alarms will clear. My guess is that you will also see that the DC Buss voltage is too low on the screen during this time when the alarms occur. Test the actual DC Buss voltage at the Vector Drive. If the Drive is actually supplying good voltage, but what you see on the screen is too low, there is something wrong with the logic inside the Vector Drive and the only fix is to replace the drive.
    This is how the system works: The mocon board is monitoring voltage from the Vector Drive. The mocon board recieves one volt for every 100 volts supplied to the DC Buss at P17. In other words, if the drive is generating 340 volts DC, it should normally send 3.4 volts to P17 on the mocon, which will display 340 volts on the screen in diagnostics.
    Steven Hawthorne
    Haas Automation, Inc.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    62
    I have the exact same symptoms on my EC400, I'll perform the above checks, thanks for the insight.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    251
    Quote Originally Posted by HemiRoadRunner View Post
    Hello Murphdog,

    I do believe that your machine has a bad Vector Drive. The alarms that you mentioned are related to the DC buss voltage from the Vector Drive. These alarms are indicating that the DC buss voltage is too low for the machine to operate. The DC buss voltage output range is 305 – 355 with 325-330 DC being the nominal voltage.

    I'll give you a few things to take a look at. You said that you checked the voltages and transformer taps. Nice. This is always the first thing you want to do when troubleshooting. Power up the machine and go to diagnostics (Press PARAM DGNOS twice) and then press the down arrow once to go to inputs 2 in diagnostics. You should see the DC buss voltage near the center of the screen. You said that that it takes 1.5-2 hours before the alarms will clear. My guess is that you will also see that the DC Buss voltage is too low on the screen during this time when the alarms occur. Test the actual DC Buss voltage at the Vector Drive. If the Drive is actually supplying good voltage, but what you see on the screen is too low, there is something wrong with the logic inside the Vector Drive and the only fix is to replace the drive.
    This is how the system works: The mocon board is monitoring voltage from the Vector Drive. The mocon board recieves one volt for every 100 volts supplied to the DC Buss at P17. In other words, if the drive is generating 340 volts DC, it should normally send 3.4 volts to P17 on the mocon, which will display 340 volts on the screen in diagnostics.
    Excellent information given Steve. Thanks for sharing.
    Just a good ol' boy, never meanin' no harm.
    Joe

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    75
    Steve,
    I powered up @ 10:30 this morning. I tried reseting @ 12:30 and it came to life. Went to the screen you said to and saw 257 volts. Was loking in the back cabinet. I am guessing the "mocon" board is the green board? Found P17 on the far left egde. There is a white block with 3 male pins P17 is to the right of the block in between the top & middle pins. It has 410 to the right of the bottom pin. It is 1:15 now and the DC buss voltage is up to 275 on the screen. What pin/pins do I check?
    Thanks

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    0

    Another semi quick check

    Check your DC voltage on the diagnostic screen (like described earlier) when you first power up the machine. Let it sit for a while and then come back to it - if your DC bus is higher & climbing slowly you have a problem with the capacitors charging circuit in the drive itself. I know of a few people who have run this way for awhile (one went for a year) but they all ended up replacing the drive.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    235
    How about a replacement for a grand? I have a refurbished one in my lathe and it works flawlessly. Check out this thread. Here is the company that does it. 24 hr turn around. Takes 10 mins to install.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by murphdog View Post
    Hello All,
    My 2008 VF4 started acting up 3-4 months ago. Kicking up a #648 DC Bus Shorted alarm for one. If we let it set for 10-15 minutes after power up the alarm would clear and be fine. Now it takes 1.5-2 hours before the alarm will clear. It also gives alarms 649-DC buss undervoltage, 292 320V power supply, & 160 low voltage. HFO says I need a Vector drive. Any thoughts?
    Voltage is fine & transformer taps are correct for the voltage.
    Just don't want to spend $2400 if I don't have to,
    Thanks
    Murphdog
    1. Turn off the machine and check the regeneration resistor 1.2 contact (5 ohms), and resistance to earth (many megohms).
    2. Disconnect the three motor leads (9-11) and the ping of the motor winding (0.5 ohms and a lot of megohms to ground). Insulate them! Turn on the machine - check the error.
    3. Disconnect the power supply other drives 320V (2-3). Insulate them! Turn on the machine - check the error.

    If you did not help - disassemble the drive and check the half-bridge IGBT-(3 pieces)

    If you still did not help - you need to repair the control board driver (with six assemblies malekaya M57962)

    Good luck!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    0
    Hi.
    I can`t, sorry.
    Send to U via PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    62
    Did you ever get this working correctly? my ec400 now takes 5 hours to warm up ( I just dont turn it off during the week ), and I need to get repairs completed. The mocon board see's 1% of the value showed on the diagnostics ( at P17 ) screen just as described below. The DC bus voltage to the drive is right at 237VDC.

    Can anyone confirm what the specific issue with the vector drive is?

    Can anyone confirm that the correct par number for the IGBT in the 40HP VFD is "75N120"

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    717
    Sounds like a straight forward fix that a few (or more) have done...

    Did you contact the re-builder that double aron mentioned? 5 hours is awful but you could really just leave the machine on 24-7 if you wanted. Many shops do that anyway...

    Or just do like you're doing and have the machine auto start up at 2am monday to be ready by 7!
    Tim

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1184
    Quote Originally Posted by vf1kf View Post
    Did you ever get this working correctly? my ec400 now takes 5 hours to warm up ( I just dont turn it off during the week ), and I need to get repairs completed. The mocon board see's 1% of the value showed on the diagnostics ( at P17 ) screen just as described below. The DC bus voltage to the drive is right at 237VDC.

    Can anyone confirm what the specific issue with the vector drive is?

    Can anyone confirm that the correct par number for the IGBT in the 40HP VFD is "75N120"
    It WILL get worse!

    Better to fix it on your schedule than when that big ultra hot job needs to get finished. It always happens at that time.

    Good luck!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    75
    Like haastec says it will only get worse. I called the rebuilder mentioned and they did not have one available at the time and it was going to be 2-3 weeks. We opted to leave the machine on 24/7 once it came to life and wait. We had left the machine on about 2 weeks and on an early Friday shutdown the help accidently powered off. He immediately powered back up & on Sunday it still had not built up enough voltage to start. After 2 weeks and no rebuilt unit coming available I called Haas and ordered one. The tech installed in less than 30 minutes and back to normal.
    Murphdog

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    62
    Well, I disassembled the drive, tested all the IGBT's ( they were all good ). I inspected the boards for damaged components, heated areas, film buildup etc...all looked good (chair). I then reassembled and installed the drive and used 2 AA batteries to power the P17 connector on the mocon board. The diagnostic screen read correctly, but the low voltage alarm still appeared. So...the mocon board is getting some different signal from the one present at P17. I suggested to the shop owner that he get a rebuilt unit, so we'll see what happens there. I left the machine on overnight from about 3pm yesterday, and was able to powerup/restart it this morning at 6:30am. I will leave it on for now. If anyone has any more insight into what specifically is wrong I would love to hear it.

    korkunov suggested replacing all 6 of the M57962 driver IC's ( I don't understand the word "malekaya" ), and I suppose I will try that if the owner does not replace the drive. I'm curious about how these supply the reference voltage to the mocon board as I do not have a schematic for the drive. I would go ahead and do it, but I need this machine for a couple sets of castings coming in and can't risk having it down for very long at all.

    Thanks for your input everyone, cheers.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    75
    You just went WAAAY over my head.
    Good luck!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1184
    Quote Originally Posted by vf1kf View Post
    Well, I disassembled the drive, tested all the IGBT's ( they were all good ). I inspected the boards for damaged components, heated areas, film buildup etc...all looked good (chair). I then reassembled and installed the drive and used 2 AA batteries to power the P17 connector on the mocon board. The diagnostic screen read correctly, but the low voltage alarm still appeared. So...the mocon board is getting some different signal from the one present at P17. I suggested to the shop owner that he get a rebuilt unit, so we'll see what happens there. I left the machine on overnight from about 3pm yesterday, and was able to powerup/restart it this morning at 6:30am. I will leave it on for now. If anyone has any more insight into what specifically is wrong I would love to hear it.

    korkunov suggested replacing all 6 of the M57962 driver IC's ( I don't understand the word "malekaya" ), and I suppose I will try that if the owner does not replace the drive. I'm curious about how these supply the reference voltage to the mocon board as I do not have a schematic for the drive. I would go ahead and do it, but I need this machine for a couple sets of castings coming in and can't risk having it down for very long at all.

    Thanks for your input everyone, cheers.
    If you can figure out what is wrong with the drive and repair it, that is great and cudos to your skills.

    Just remember, that sometimes saving a few bucks on the repair can lead to some nightmare delays. Others on the forum here have tried to repair the drive only to be down for weeks or be troubled with repeat problems.

    Not saying your route is right or wrong. I am all about being a DIY but just weigh the potential down time and loss of production vs just having your dealer replace it, takes all of 15 minutes to replace and you get a warranty on the part.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    15
    Hi
    I have same problem on Vf2. i get 3.3v on p17 but have alarm "undervoltage" after few minutes alarms clear, but i get "regen" and overvoltage alarm at spindle stop. After few hours it cleared and work good up to next power off.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    15
    Hi
    I have same problem on Vf2. i get 3.3v on p17 but have alarm "undervoltage" after few minutes alarms clear, but i get "regen" and overvoltage alarm at spindle stop. After few hours it cleared and work good up to next power off.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    62
    Have you checked your regen resistor (big coil thing that says HOT! on top of machine)? isolate it from the vecor drive and check continuity, Should be 5ohm across it and many megaohms to ground. If that checks good, it's something inside the drive.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    0
    I have a VF-2 and VF-3 with the same 3 codes (648,649,160) if I leave them alone one takes 45 mins to an hour and the other takes 1 to 1.5 hrs. So i took my wifes old hair blow dryer to the vector drive for about 5 mins and the codes clear out. I know this isnt a permanent fix but it gets you buy for awhile and with out leaving machines on all the time.

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