[jimbojones1000]

Hate to wade in on this but...
I use and pay for a full license of solidworks pro and the annual subs, but downloading software and using it illegally is not theft, its copy write infringement, im not saying its morally correct or acceptable, but its not theft, the world is made up of subtle differences and just claiming something is a certain way because morally your in the write doesn't make it so. You shouldn't infringe on someones copy write, and you shouldn't steal but they aren't the same thing.

The implication that copy write infringement is theft stems from the RIAA and similar organisations attempts to change the way people think about copy write, the methods they have chosen however are as morally dubious as those used to defend copy write infringement in the first place.

I make my income from patented products, so my livelihood is directly related to the protection of intelectual property, there are many avenues of recourse if one of our products was infringed upon, mainly because they are physically manufactured and sold, this is where the software industry and music film etc need to come up with a feasible method of protection, this i think should probably include pricing dependant upon use, especially with design and analysis software a pay as you go licensing scheme. Ansys and other high end software vendors offer minute by minute licensing(allowing for elastic clusters) which could easily be implemented in CAD/CAM in the far simpler one machine situation, it would allow people an easy path into the products. The more people out there designing and innovating the better the world will be, and if software companies can get in there at the beginning all the better for everyone.

Oh and buy the student copy you tight ****.

[mdlmkr]

It's "copyright" not copy write. And copyright infringement covers the copying and distributing for profit of any intellectual property. That is why you never hear about people being dinged for DOWNLOADING just UPLOADING copyright material.

If you go to a store and take a DVD without paying for it, it is theft. If you download and use a piece of software without paying for it, it is theft. If you THEN sell that software, it is copyright infringement.

Just buy it.

[neilw20]

If you download and try something, and don't on sell it or any of the IP, and you were never going to buy it, but would like to understand it, who loses? - nobody.

Sure, pirating stuff and making money from it, either by selling it or using it to make income from it is theft.

Learning some software package, and then working for someone with a licensed copy is promoting the software -- just look at ACAD.

Packages that are not backward compatible, like SW cause users to be sucked in by smart marketing, but in the CAD/CAM area if you have a licensed SW, say 2010, and you pay someone who has >2010 to do work on your file(s) they can no longer be opened in 2010. That is just bad, dumb stuff.
ACAD and many other packages don't have that vice. Hope $140 is not spent on SW. Try something else. Don't be sucked in by 'you need a later version' now. I forgot to tell you it would be useless next year, and I have 2 customers that are moving away from such sneaky marketed products as I type.
The excuse is the new features can't be integrated. CR4P!! Features you may not even want, but have no option but to buy.

I have been programming professionally since computers didn't have keyboards.
Yes, I protect my IP, and might even share some around from time to time.
2 packages still running out there 24 years later. Got paid once, and that was fine.

[BurrMan]

If you download and try something, and don't on sell it or any of the IP, and you were never going to buy it, but would like to understand it, who loses? - nobody.

Sure, pirating stuff and making money from it, either by selling it or using it to make income from it is theft.

Learning some software package, and then working for someone with a licensed copy is promoting the software -- just look at ACAD.

Packages that are not backward compatible, like SW cause users to be sucked in by smart marketing, but in the CAD/CAM area if you have a licensed SW, say 2010, and you pay someone who has >2010 to do work on your file(s) they can no longer be opened in 2010. That is just bad, dumb stuff.
ACAD and many other packages don't have that vice. Hope $140 is not spent on SW. Try something else. Don't be sucked in by 'you need a later version' now. I forgot to tell you it would be useless next year, and I have 2 customers that are moving away from such sneaky marketed products as I type.
The excuse is the new features can't be integrated. CR4P!! Features you may not even want, but have no option but to buy..

How rediculous. You are never forced to upgrade... If you give your files to someone else that upgrades it, that onus is on YOU!

The idea that "it's a great marketing campaign, is always used by those that just want something for free.

I have been programming professionally since computers didn't have keyboards.
Yes, I protect my IP, and might even share some around from time to time.
2 packages still running out there 24 years later. Got paid once, and that was fine

Maybe. Have you also invested mllions into it's development over the last 24 years? Are you continually updateing and upgrading them with the latest technology? How often do those 2 people that still use it call you for support and how much time do you spend to provide it?

BTW: The software thieves are what creates the difficulty in sampling and demo-ing software, and also add a huge cost to it...

Stealing, nothing less. It's not "Copyright infringment". I suppose that poster doesnt know what that means?

The "grey area" of software ownership was created by the thieves. I can create a product and license it for profit. If you dont want to pay, dont use it. Dont tell me you have some type of right to my product.

[neilw20]

Burrman,
The two users are the big end of town servicing millions.
If it's not broke, it still doesn't need fixing. - or upgrading, by design.
Then there is designed obsolescence, and if you purchase a product, you choose the lifetime of it, even specify it if you wish.

[BurrMan]

Burrman,
The two users are the big end of town servicing millions.
If it's not broke, it still doesn't need fixing. - or upgrading, by design.
Then there is designed obsolescence, and if you purchase a product, you choose the lifetime of it, even specify it if you wish.

Well, it is hard to imagine any company "servicing millions" is still using software that was written 30 years ago, but the scenario could be exagerated too. Like, it's embedded code to say "Open or closed" or something.

Maybe you would like to provide that program here in this forum... It would be great advertising!!!

[neilw20]

Millions.. Public transport. And their failings system doesn't seem to want any help unless it is politically motivated.

[BurrMan]

Millions.. Public transport. And their failings system doesn't seem to want any help unless it is politically motivated.

Post the program here.

[BurrMan]

Millions.. Public transport. And their failings system doesn't seem to want any help unless it is politically motivated.

Thats what I figured. red light, green light.

[Cut Loose]

Glad I came back to CNCzone...only to find it has not changed a bit.
While everyone is handing out advice...how about we try to help each other instead of wasting so much time proving how smart we are or dumb someone else is.

To the original poster:
Yes there are ways to get SW for free.
NO I don't use them, so I can not tell you how.

To those who don't like paying yearly upgrades for SW:
Don't buy it, that will teach 'em!

To Engineering students:
SW is one of the most widely used tools in the industry in which you are spending thousands of dollars to become a part of, it might be worth a small investment to know how to use it.
On the topic of Intellectual Property,I am not a lawyer, so I am not going to try and tell you legal this or that. I'm not your God, so I'm not going to stampede my moral high horse over your arse. I am however an experienced professional in the industry, with an interest in helping and educating this and future generations of professionals in our industry, from that perspective I can tell you this...when you go to work for a company one of the things you are asking them is for them to trust you with their IP. How do you think your prospective employers will feel about you using someone elses IP without permission? Legitimate, long term employers don't hire hackers!

[BurrMan]

You Idiots are real Helpful

Glad I came back to CNCzone...only to find it has not changed a bit.
While everyone is handing out advice...how about we try to help each other instead of wasting so much time proving how smart we are or dumb someone else is.
!

Clearly you need a sip of your own water!

To the original poster:
Yes there are ways to get SW for free.
NO I don't use them, so I can not tell you how.

To those who don't like paying yearly upgrades for SW:
Don't buy it, that will teach 'em!

To Engineering students:
SW is one of the most widely used tools in the industry in which you are spending thousands of dollars to become a part of, it might be worth a small investment to know how to use it.
On the topic of Intellectual Property,I am not a lawyer, so I am not going to try and tell you legal this or that. I'm not your God, so I'm not going to stampede my moral high horse over your arse. I am however an experienced professional in the industry, with an interest in helping and educating this and future generations of professionals in our industry, from that perspective I can tell you this...when you go to work for a company one of the things you are asking them is for them to trust you with their IP. How do you think your prospective employers will feel about you using someone elses IP without permission? Legitimate, long term employers don't hire hackers

A good repeat of whats already been said...

Except I take exception to the program continually being refered to as "Intellectual property". ALthough, thats the legal jargin for the underlying code that creates the program. The term is "Product".

[neilw20]

Definitely product!! The intellectuals left long ago. Purely $$ driven now by fewer and bigger and bigger.

[BurrMan]

Definitely product!! The intellectuals left long ago. Purely $$ driven now by fewer and bigger and bigger.

Parially Neil. Mostly a company doesnt do it "all on their own" anymore.. Like Solidworks. They license the Parasolids modeling kernel from Siemens. They also use products created by TechSoft3D. Companies that specialize in specific areas. Although, there is intellectual property in all of those products, they are paid products offered for sale, which others buy to use. Dessault could sell their product for much less if they hired programmers and made all this stuff inhouse, but it would not be as good of a product, as say, the "PARASOLIDS" modeling kernel. A product that has had 1,000's of man hours put into it, and is continully being developed today, to take advantage of todays technoligies, and provide functionality required today.. This all DOES cost money though. I'm not interested in returning to the stone ages.

Continued piracy will accomplish one thing. The "big bucks" will modify their product so you cant perform this function.. Your computer will become a TV.

[m98custom1212]

Parially Neil. Mostly a company doesnt do it "all on their own" anymore.. Like Solidworks. They license the Parasolids modeling kernel from Siemens. They also use products created by TechSoft3D. Companies that specialize in specific areas. Although, there is intellectual property in all of those products, they are paid products offered for sale, which others buy to use. Dessault could sell their product for much less if they hired programmers and made all this stuff inhouse, but it would not be as good of a product, as say, the "PARASOLIDS" modeling kernel. A product that has had 1,000's of man hours put into it, and is continully being developed today, to take advantage of todays technoligies, and provide functionality required today.. This all DOES cost money though. I'm not interested in returning to the stone ages.

Continued piracy will accomplish one thing. The "big bucks" will modify their product so you cant perform this function.. Your computer will become a TV.

Wait... I thought solidworks was downgraded CATIA.. just like solidedge is downgraded NX

[BurrMan]

Wait... I thought solidworks was downgraded CATIA.. just like solidedge is downgraded NX

Yes, I think thats true... "Solidworks and SolidEdge = Midrange More limited to modeling/design areas" "Catia And NX = Mid/High end"... The higher level stuff just being more PLM oriented features and stuff... Team and full plant operations and stuff.. (A simplified explanation)

[BanduraMaker]

Wait... I thought solidworks was downgraded CATIA.. just like solidedge is downgraded NX

Might be true for solid edge but I don't think that's the case with SW. SW and Catia started life as independent products in separate companies. Dassault bought solidworks several years ago and I believe that a lot of the development is still independent.

[hessianerd]

Too much, I didnt realize there were machinists out there who DIDNT pirate software... certainly not been the case with the machinists Ive spent time with. Not making a judgement, just an observation.

Why not support the FOSS? Try FreeCAD! It is totally legit, similar enough to solid works, and a great project.

[LaughingJaguar]

Wait... I thought SolidWorks was downgraded CATIA.. just like Solid Edge is downgraded NX

Might be true for solid edge but I don't think that's the case with SW. SW and Catia started life as independent products in separate companies. Dassault bought Solidworks several years ago and I believe that a lot of the development is still independent.

Wow! Somebody finally got it right!.

In the early 90's, Jon Hirschtick and Mike Payne were with Parametric Technologies, the owner founder of Pro Engineer, a mechanical engineering software that was the first true 3D solid modeler. Pro E only ran on 32 bit platforms like Silicon Graphics and Sun Sparc workstations and brutalized end users with the clumsiest software interface ever designed and demanded that people learn their way around Unix. It was such a memory hog that there was no "undo" option available. The only way to undo anything was to save the design at every step, quit the model if you had a problem, and reload the backup!

Scott Harris joined the duo and the three had the foresight to recognize the value of the soon to be released Microsoft Windows 95 Operating System, a true 32 bit instrument that liberated the end users from the nerdy complexities of computers. Combined with the power of the new Intel Pentium processors and the built in user friendly MS interface, SolidWorks boogied!

The success of the fledgling software was virtually immediate. It offered to the public 80% of Pro E's power but at 10% of the cost and soon preparations were made to take SolidWorks public.

The story goes that when the people at PTC found out that a SolidWorks IPO was eminent, they made plans to buy every share of stock available and do a hostile takeover. It's alleged that with SolidWorks under their control, they could kill the new upstart, eliminate the threat to Pro Engineer and breathe easy.

People inside PTC, friendly to Hirschtick, are said to have alerted him to what was about to happen. It was then that Hirschtick, et al, approached the management of Dassault Systèmes, negotiated a buy-out and slammed the door on PTC's plans.

For those of you not familiar with Dassault Systèmes, their aerospace division is an integral part of the multi-national Air Bus conglomerate and also makes a number of highly advanced fighters under the Mirage nameplate. They are also the owners of CATIA software which is the dominant engineering and product management software and the weapon of choice by such giants as Electric Boat company division of General Dynamics, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, etc. Many American and European automobile manufacturers are said to use CATIA as well.

The suggestion that the embedded Parasolid kernel is the source of all things magical in Solidworks is unsupported. The kernel is merely one design element in a very complex environment. And, while it strongly influences the user interface, it is no more dominant than an Eaton rear axle in a Peterbilt tractor.

Dassault Systèmes has owned the ACIS kernel ever since they purchased Spatial Technology in 2000. They also own the V6 kernel which drives CATIA so they have options and are constantly developing them in spite of what has been alleged. However, unless both CATIA and SolidWorks share a common geometric modeling kernel, the often discussed migration from SolidWorks to CATIA is unlikely. While both are extremely successful, they each have distinctly different end users so the need for a common kernel doesn't exist.

If Siemens, who owns Parasolids gets too pushy, Dassault Systèmes can swap it out. I won't want to be around when it happens. That's like swapping out the pistons in Chevy V8 for those taken from a Dodge Hemi. It can be done but it will be a noisy transition. End users will see to it!

BTW, Jon Hirschtick, the visionary who started this all, recently retired from his position at the company he founded 20 years ago. He and Steve Jobs were kindred spirits but Jon is a much more pleasant personality.

Don't get me wrong: I admire Jobs immensely and would have worked for him and suffered gladly!

Most people do not know that SolidEdge was actually introduced before SolidWorks but squandered their advantage much the same way that AutoDesk did theirs: through ineffective and tepid software development and poor management. AutoDesk rested on its laurels for way too long.

A major problem at AutoDesk was that upper management insisted that any 3D software must have the familiar look and feel of AutoCAD 2D and that any offering must be developed over the existing software. People I knew at AutoDesk viewed the demands as insane if for no other reason that there were over 200,000 lines of allegedly undocumented lines of sourcecode in an already complex program with routes back to 8 bit evironments. It was already a cumbersome kludge. 3D developoment on that foundation would never work.

Two VP's of the mechanical group are said to have been fired over their failure to deliver the impossible. By the time management woke up, the train had left the station, they'd lost much of their loyal base of existing users and Autodesk has been playing catch up ever since.

By contrast, Mike Payne is a brilliant software architect and drove SolidWorks so it was always way out in front of SolidEdge, whose development was lethargic. In the final analysis, Siemens took SE under its wing and is now trying hard to resuscitate an also ran. Last I heard, Mike Payne was promoted to head of software development for CATIA as well.

Pro Engineer, which used to sell for as much as $60,000 for one seat with hardware and training, is merely a shadow of its former self and like AutoDesk, is becoming less of a factor in engineering circles. They cut their prices dramatically in a desperate attempt to stay even with SolidWorks but failed to stem the tide. Software development has ground virtually to a halt, while Solidworks, a cash cow, is buying up most any third party add-on and integrating them seamlessly. This not only makes the basic package more powerful in diverse disciplines, it robs the competition of the things they need to stay in the game.

I have all three CAD packages and a shelf of virtually every Solidworks release in the past 18 years. When I design, I pick a 12 year old version of SolidWorks and can do most anything anyone else can with 2012!

After all is said and done, these programs are merely tools of self-expression. There is no one CAD package that is "Best!" Ultimately, the one that wins the competition is the one that gets the greatest amount of agreement. For now, it is Solidworks' day in the sun.

Eventually, when you buy a software package, it will not show up on a dvd. It will arrive on a chip and you will open up your computer and plug it into the motherboard and with that, this whole conversation about pirating software will grind to a halt.

L.J.