[Rob McA]

Hi, I've been lurking a little and this seems like a massively knowledgeable place, plus nice helpful folks. Please be kind, as I'm out of my field here.

I'm the engineering mentor for a small town high school robotics team, they compete in First Technical Challenge robotics - the robots are mostly aluminum and fit in an 18" cube. The team was new last season, but has done pretty well due to smart, enthusiastic kids.

We've pretty much swept through the district the 1-1/2 seasons we've competed, this season we went to regionals and qualified both our bots for worlds, the top 128 teams from around the world - China, S. Korea, Russia, teams sponsored by Google, Intel, etc. We were frankly not prepared to compete against the level of build sophistication we saw at worlds. Out bots were built with hand tools and a small drill press. We limited design to what we could build with the tools we had. We beat about 30 teams at worlds, but weren't competitive with the top teams.

I had a blast a worlds, so did the kids. We'd like to go back, but not to get beaten like a cheap drum. We need to up our game and I've pledged to give the kids the tools they need. The team gets no budget from the School District, I've paid for most of the parts and travel out of pocket (I've had a pretty successful career in oil and gas engineering, but not manufacturing), so budget is a consideration.

I took machine shop in college, but none since. We should be very able to get a local machinist mentor for the build teams, as there is a lot of precision manufacturing local to us.

Several of the teams we saw at worlds told me they sent out parts for CNC machining. I won't have that. These kids will learn more if they design and build their own stuff, and these would be terrific skills to develop when young. These are great, smart, hardworking kids who deserve a chance to compete without a manufacturing handicap.

So my question is, what would the experienced folks here recommend for benchtop tools to work with aluminum and plastics, maybe occasional small steel parts. Precision and ease of use, is desirable, as I said the maximum dimension on the bots is 18" so the parts will be small, as is our lab. I will be buying the equipment for them out of pocket, so cost is a consideration.

I'd like them to learn manual machining first, with the ability to upgrade to CNC as a later option. One of the build teams is mostly freshman now, so they have several years to hone their skills.

Based on what I've read here I've been looking at Sherline, Taig, and the X2/Little Machine Shop machines. For student work, are there any significant advantages or drawbacks to one or the other. Is initial setup harder for one or the other? I think they probably NEED a mill, and a lathe could be an option added later. I'd like to get them going for under $2000, for machine plus accessories (tooling, rotary table, etc.), if that's possible.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[TroyO]

Well..... I'll start with that because it's a deep subject too, heh. ;-)

I don't have all the info off hand for that but I figured I'd throw something else out there... what about a smaller CNC router table? 2K might get you in the ballpark. I know it doesn't meet the "Learning to manually machine first" part but the work envelope on most would encompass the full 18" plus some extra.

Routers are very versitile as far as materials.. obviously they excel at wood but for robotics they can also do AL very handily and can also get a passing grade on a variety of plastics, rubbers, composites, etc.

Just food for thought.

Congrats on getting involved! My nephews school does that too... unfortunatley they live several states away.

[txcncman]

You do not say what city/town in Texas you are in. You might be surprised on how much help you can get from local shops for this kind of thing if you just ask, up to and including training some of the students to handle some of the CNC machines and donating machine time and employee mentors. Even a college that has a machine shop program and equipment can be asked for help.

[Fastest1]

Where does it say he is in Texas? (never mind I found it in his profile) He says something about making his money in oil and gas. The other points you bring up are very valid. If he is in the Houston/Woodlands/Conroe area we could work something out in regards to machine use, now experience would have to be brought in!

You do not say what city/town in Texas you are in. You might be surprised on how much help you can get from local shops for this kind of thing if you just ask, up to and including training some of the students to handle some of the CNC machines and donating machine time and employee mentors. Even a college that has a machine shop program and equipment can be asked for help.

[Steven Martin]

Hi Rob,
First of all, welcome to FIRST! I've been a Mentor for 8 years now, and it's a BLAST!

FTC isn't supposed to require a lot of machining, so don't feel disadvantaged building with a hacksaw and a drill press. Lots of good work can be done that way if you are patient and careful. Biggest problem we have is kids too impatient to carefully measure and pilot drill their holes.

The gantry router is actually a good suggestion. There are a number of kits out there, and having the kids put it together is a good learning experience in itself. I'd also look into a small lathe for turning axles, rollers, small pulleys, bushings, etc. You could get something new from Grizzly or Harbor Freight for not a lot of money, but I honestly think you'd be better off watching Craigslist for a quality used machine like a South Bend or Atlas. That way you might not only find a machine but also someone who might be willing to take some time to teach you how to set up and maintain it. Who knows, you might even find another Mentor for your team.

BTW, another good resource for the FIRST crowd (if you haven't already discovered it) is Chief Delphi - Portal

Steve
FRC Team 470

[arizonavideo]

A smaller router table should do most of what you need.

Their is a guy that makes a smaller router on the Zone called Microcarve.

I found a short video.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_99V0SVjVg0]Microcarve A-10 CNC router - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...p_machine.html

The nice thing about a router is no one part cost a lot so you can't really break it.

[Rob McA]

Thanks so much for your replies, I'll take a close look at the routers. We're in Midland, only about 500 miles from Houston, but we have a lot of oilfield manufacturing here, and companies I do business with have machinists, so getting help will probably be pretty doable.

Our lab is quite small, and I want things done in house. This is not a class, it's a club and gets no school financial support. The kids come in after school and work late, then still have to do their homework as we require top grades (not a problem with this bunch). Sadly, the school no longer has classes in metal shop.

Again, thanks for the good advice, I'll look closely at the router tables.

[roundman]

Interesting all of the different ways to bring projects and people along mentoring them. I solidly believe like you that it is necessary to work starting with manual machines as it is hands on experience whereas training on a cnc first one misses the critical skills needed tor for a solid foundation. Besides it helps them see there are ways to build things without a CNC, The CNC learning is critical yet many times manual will do the job along or in cooperation with each other. I suppose you would integrate what resources you have on site and since CNC is so expensive you often can do only do what you can with what you have and this happens daily in everywhere.. In England the apprentice is first taught how to file something to make it and go from there. The mentor ship is or was one on one they are good. Whdo the best you cab with what you have which we go through esch at they learn is depen