[philbur]

This is not a knock SprutCam thread. It's more of a "should I have started with SprutCam" thread. The title was to catch your attention.

Let me start by saying I have never used SprutCam, but I have read way more than enough to convince me that it can be something of a challenge. This is especially true for those that are new to CNC and are possibly trying to learn the machine and how it works, how to machine, Cad, Cam, and Mach#, all at the same time and all from scratch. Feeew, I break out in a cold sweat just thinking about it.

My proposal is that a simple 2D cad/cam package could be a much more practical starting point for many. Of course a person might say "why buy a 2D cam package, 3D cam will do 2D cam but 2D cam can't do 3D cam". Plus "I only need to learn one package if I start with 3D"... Right. Well my proposal is ...Wrong.

A simple 2D cad and cam package costs next to nothing and it's simplicity makes it a piece of cake to learn in comparison to 3D cam/cam. A person might say well I don't want to spend time learning one system then have to start all over again when I switch to 3D. If you are up to it then yes that might be an OK strategy. However there is nothing fundamentally wrong in taking the simple path as the first step. You wouldn't learn mountain climbing by tackling the Mattenhorn as your first experience would you. Think about it.



The added advantage of having a simple 2D system available is that all of the 2D jobs that come up later will still be a lot simpler, even after you get up to speed on the 3D software.

So my advice for those newbies that are somewhat overwhelmed: Start with a simple 2D system to find your feet then move up to the clever 3D stuff when you are ready or when necessary. If you have already bought a 3D package and are struggling then there is no shame in stepping back to a simple 2D system. Don't allow yourself to be enticed on the basis that 2D cam is cool but 3D cam is cooler.

Phil

[BobWarfield]

What's the 2D CAM package that's so much simpler than SprutCAM it will save years of aging and worry?

You must have one in mind to have written this post. Which one do you use? Which one was like falling off a log?

I'm curious as I have a lot of CAM systems and would like to go look at the issue directly.

Cheers,

BW

[dblox]

Well I can agree with this actually, as a user of SprutCAM 7 and Dolphin CAD/CAM. I started a part time CNC machining business and purchased Dolphin shortly after; as soon as I became full time I purchased SprutCAM.
Now I only ever use SprutCAM for 3d surfaces and operations; I have been assured that simple 2.5d operations are easy to do in Sprut, however this has not been my experience. Sprut has saved my bacon many times with 3d toolpaths but it sometimes requires tweaking and re-doing to get what I want. I always get there in the end though. Sometimes with a tiny bit of gouging which I can never figure out.

Maybe because I have a simple and easy to use 2.5d system, I have never had to learn to be efficient with Sprut 2.5d work. But if I had to recommend CAM software to any one else considering a purchase, I would say buy both.

[Steve Seebold]

This is not a knock SprutCam thread. It's more of a "should I have started with SprutCam" thread. The title was to catch your attention.

Let me start by saying I have never used SprutCam, but I have read way more than enough to convince me that it can be something of a challenge. This is especially true for those that are new to CNC and are possibly trying to learn the machine and how it works, how to machine, Cad, Cam, and Mach#, all at the same time and all from scratch. Feeew, I break out in a cold sweat just thinking about it.

My proposal is that a simple 2D cad/cam package could be a much more practical starting point for many. Of course a person might say "why buy a 2D cam package, 3D cam will do 2D cam but 2D cam can't do 3D cam". Plus "I only need to learn one package if I start with 3D"... Right. Well my proposal is ...Wrong.

A simple 2D cad and cam package costs next to nothing and it's simplicity makes it a piece of cake to learn in comparison to 3D cam/cam. A person might say well I don't want to spend time learning one system then have to start all over again when I switch to 3D. If you are up to it then yes that might be an OK strategy. However there is nothing fundamentally wrong in taking the simple path as the first step. You wouldn't learn mountain climbing by tackling the Mattenhorn as your first experience would you. Think about it.



The added advantage of having a simple 2D system available is that all of the 2D jobs that come up later will still be a lot simpler, even after you get up to speed on the 3D software.

So my advice for those newbies that are somewhat overwhelmed: Start with a simple 2D system to find your feet then move up to the clever 3D stuff when you are ready or when necessary. If you have already bought a 3D package and are struggling then there is no shame in stepping back to a simple 2D system. Don't allow yourself to be enticed on the basis that 2D cam is cool but 3D cam is cooler.

Phil

Phil, you absolutely WRONG for putting up a post like this. I came from a real CNC shop where I was the owner. You're right there are lots of CAD/CAM packages out there to choose from, but just because you may be having a tough time learning SprutCam, doesn't mean you can try to convince everyone that it's crap.

I am a GibbsCam user and have been for 12 years or more. I looked at several videos of SprutCam, and for my liking it is a little too cumbersome to suit me. That's not to say someone who is a lot more computer savy than I have would not have an easier time learning SprutCam.

I have spent over $18,000.00 on my GibbsCam, and for me it just wasn't practical to buy another system. Besides, I'm 67 years old and I don't WANT to learn a new system

Someone said you can do 2 or 2 1/2D work on a 3D system, but you can't do 3D work on a 2 1/2D system. Learn to use your SprutCam and grow into it. Quit beachin' about it.

Personally, from the videos I have seen on SprutCam, I am not that impressed. But then I don't like Mastercam or Surfcam either. Nor do I like FeatureCam, but I would NEVER put a post like this telling everyone not to buy it.

[tbaker2500]

Like I've posted before, I failed to get much out of my Tormach because of the feeling that I needed to use Sprutcam, which I had purchased in combo. In the last year, I decided to put sprut on the back burner for complicated projects, and I found Vectric's Cut2d, and then quickly upgraded to V-Carve Pro. I now have the 1100 going 8 horus a day at work, on countless projects that I would've never bothered with because of the cumbersome effort of sprutcam. Some projects got the "Nah, it's not worth it" with sprut, and with V-carve they're drawn up in 5 minutes.

Choosing to stop using Sprut was the single best thing I did for my Tormach and machining at my company. I now use my 1100 for all sorts of things, and I get much better products because I can mill custom parts so easily.

Here's the breakdown for me. Sprutcam is capable of SO MUCH MORE than V-carve. I mean, it's not even in the same ballpark. Obviously for 3d passes it's no contest. But these advanced capabilities are not needed or even useful on 95% of what I do. There is surprisingly little 3d work I do, most can be accomplished with a clever 2.5d pass.

V-Carve is extremely simple, and very specific about what it can do. But of the things it knows how to do, it does better than sprut. I want tabs on a cutout? I click the tabs button, select how many I want, of what size, and go. If I want to cut out inlay lettering, I just choose "inlay", and go. I recently watched a Sprut video on creating tabs. It took 6 minutes, would be hard to do on complicated shapes, and didn't even allow for 3-d tabs.

Here is one of the many products I make with my 1100 and V-Carve:
Professional Laser Tag Equipment

That being said, I'm glad I own sprut, and will use it occasionally. I'm just glad I don't HAVE to use it.

Also- I'm 34, been a computer wiz my whole life, and pick this stuff up quickly. The only software package that I use on a regular basis which is more cumbersome than Sprut is my circuit board layout software, EAGLE.

As always, your milage may vary. I suspect sprut may make more sense to those who know 3D modeling software. It uses many of the same paradigms.

[ger21]

Phil, you absolutely WRONG for putting up a post like this.............................................. ........ but just because you may be having a tough time learning SprutCam, doesn't mean you can try to convince everyone that it's crap.

.................................................. ...................... but I would NEVER put a post like this telling everyone not to buy it.

Did you read his post?

He never said it was crap, and didn't say not to buy it.

I think you missed the point of his post entirely???

[williamsmotower]

Imho madcam is the cheapest, simplest, most powerful cam package available. if you are already using rhino cad, try it. I love it!

[David Bord]

Phil, I get it... While I'm a sprutcam user, and I love the program... It does take a bit longer than a simple 2d program. As you point out, you can get some very simple and effective(but cheap) cam programs like cam bam and others that are less than $200 and work your way into a more complicated program like sprutcam. I've been using it for 6 years now and it has gotten MUCH better... And with Tormach supporting it, you are way way ahead of where I started.

With that said, sprutcam is incrediblly powerful and feature rich, especially for the $$.

David

[RTP_Burnsville]

I have SprutCam and also have used V-Carve Pro as that is what I recommended to my Dad for his wood router.

In my view, for serious machining SprutCam can't be beat, especially for the homeshop person. Look around, there is nothing even close in the price range for what you get.

V-Carve pro is just the ticket for an easy to use program for doing 2d type projects. For example my Dad never messed with CNC but picked up the basics and was doing some very neat things in about a day. Check out their demo if you don't believe me.

Both programs have their place.

Robert

[Don Clement]

I am one who has peered from both the summit of Mt Whitney to depths of Death Valley and from the depths of Death Valley to the Whitney summit, even did the Matterhorn (the E ticket ride at Disneyland) and conquered SprutCAM for the first time with no previous CAM experience. I can say from experience that if the Matterhorn was E ticket then SprutCAM was also that, very doable especially the new version 7.

Phil: Does the sun actually shine in Norway? I was out at Joshua Tree Joshua Tree National Park - Joshua Tree National Park a couple of weeks ago and meet three very pale white skinned students from Norway who were searching for Cap rock and the remains of Gram Parsons. Joshua Tree National Park, Gram Parsons Memorial at Cap Rock - a gallery on Flickr
I then went on to say that a few years ago we went to see Serena Maneesh Serena-Maneesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia over at Club Spaceland in LA. It sure is a small world.

[Gundawg]

When I was looking at buying a Tormach I looked into Sprutcam and watched the videos. My background is that I have been running a CNC Shop Bot router for about 6 years and no CNC background other than the router. I was convinced to buy the Router table after watching the Vetric tutorial videos. I found running the router table fairly easy to learn.

I watched some of the tutorial video's for Sprutcam and was very intimidated by the software. As I watched the video on 3D projects I could not believe how complicated they were making something that really could have been done in 2.5D in way less time with V-Carve Pro. I think the reason they were doing it the way they were was to show how it all worked and it was probably learning the basics to build on for more complicated things later on.

The problem with V-Carve Pro is it is not designed for a milling machine it is designed to be a router table software package and Vetric will tell you that. They do not support operations like thread milling, tapping and other operations that are common to milling that router tables don't usually perform. V-Carve also shines for 4th axis work.

Sprutcam for a milling machine has more functionality but at the cost of a much more difficult system to learn. If Vetric would just add some milling functions they lack now I doubt many people would use Sprutcam. I actually sent Vetric a letter explaining my view on this and they responded by telling me milling machines was not their focus that is too bad.

I am sure in time I could learn Sprutcam but for now I do not need it.

I actually upgraded to Aspire Vetrics 3D program but do not use the 3D much and I use the functionality that comes with V-Carve Pro so it was probably a waist of money for my use.

Mike

[Steve Seebold]

I am one who has peered from both the summit of Mt Whitney to depths of Death Valley and from the depths of Death Valley to the Whitney summit, even did the Matterhorn (the E ticket ride at Disneyland) and conquered SprutCAM for the first time with no previous CAM experience. I can say from experience that if the Matterhorn was E ticket then SprutCAM was also that, very doable especially the new version 7.

Conquering SprutCam with no previous CAM experience is probably the best way to do it because then you're not comparing it with other systems.

[Don Clement]

Conquering SprutCam with no previous CAM experience is probably the best way to do it because then you're not comparing it with other systems.

Unlike the OP and some others who posted their SprutCAM opinions, I do personally use SprutCAM and can actually comment from my direct experience using SprutCAM with my Tormach. SprutCAM works well for me for 3D or if just using SprutCAM in 2.5D to drill holes. SprutCAM has all the capabilities I need and the only comparison for me is that I saved a ton of money by buying SprutCAM. YMMV

Don

[Sp-4renegade]

I was 12 years since I seen a CNC lathe/mill, have no cad or cam experience. Tormach did support Sprut, I did question Tormach about the Sprut, they agreed the things I want to do with the 1100 I would need the Sprut. So I got the Sprut package. I also wanted a turn key system supported by Tormach. Do I use it? Once, altough I have over 250hours of machine time. More tooling, 4th axis and the tool changer first, winter I will have more time to study the Sprut. I am learning it, I like it so far. I knew it would be a learning curve to it, I had from the started planned on a simpler cam just didnt know which one, thats still up in the air. Right now its Zero in, punch in a Wizard and hit start, most times I use the manual spindle control (I have a digital RPM gage mounted in the control panel) reads off the spindle pulley, it also works like a load meter. Sprut or some other cam is not important right now for me. I want to know what the 1100 can and cant do and find any quirks. Learning the G codes is my next step. Changing a few lines of code can really speed things up. As suggest yes Sprut is kicking my butt. I also dont know what else to get.

[jid2]

When considering a Tormach for my day-job and the associated CAM package I had a look at Sprut. After a few tutorials I knew it wasn't going to work in time sensitive environment. My main problem was that very little of the CAD data made it into the Sprut work flow. You were required to measure things and input that into Sprut instead of simply clicking on CAD geometry and having the CAM package do the rest. It gave me the impression that the CAM programming could have a massive impact on the final part, kinda like the CAD was simply a reference instead the driving geometry.

I eneded up liking the Solidworks integrated stuff like HSMworks and SolidCam. And for 2.5D you can get HSMworks for free if you have a Solidworks seat.

[Don Clement]

I eneded up liking the Solidworks integrated stuff like HSMworks and SolidCam. And for 2.5D you can get HSMworks for free if you have a Solidworks seat.

Was 3D SolidCAM free? Liking, affording, and actually using are different animals.

[MichaelHenry]

Conquering SprutCam with no previous CAM experience is probably the best way to do it because then you're not comparing it with other systems.

Maybe so, but new users can also get very confused by the new terms and techniques used (compared to manual machining) and the abundance of parameters can be bewildering too. At least that's how it struck me when I started with SprutCAM 4 a few years back and it occurred to me then that it might have been easier if I was already familiar with a different CAM program. It's gotten a lot better with SprutCAM 7 and the Tormach tutorials to help pave the way. If I were starting from scratch today, I'd be sorely tempted to take the Tormach class. That would probably have saved me many (many!) hours of frustration.

Most of my work these days is 2-1/2D profiling and it only takes a few minutes to set up most jobs.

[jid2]

Was 3D SolidCAM free? Liking, affording, and actually using are different animals.

No, SolidCam has nothing for free. It's HSMWorks that has free 2.5D CAM, and it is very nice.

[inspirtech]

You can learn more about HSMXpress here:

NexGenCAM - YouTube

and download it here

HSMXpress | HSMWorks • Integrated CAM for SolidWorks

[mike sr1]

Conquering SprutCam with no previous CAM experience is probably the best way to do it because then you're not comparing it with other systems.

I agree with you on this Steve.

I am learning Sprutcam slowly and each day I learn something new, now that I am learning some of the functions it is getting easier and I havent learned another cam program to confuse things.

I learned some of Alibre cad and am trying Rhino 4 cad as a buddy recommended that, I find it a hassle as I am always trying to compare one to the other.