[pete from TN]

I got some BIG news!! As I said in my last update I was able to sell my beloved RF45 CNC mill that all of you here helped me build. I have been wishing for a decent used VMC for many years now and I am proud to say that yesterday afternoon I FINALLY BOUGHT ONE!! I found a local fellow who has a very nice condition 1994 Cincinatti Arrow 500 VMC. It does have an issue that the Z axis drive is blown on it but I have already checked on the support for the machine. It is still supported by the manufacturer of the control and I can get the drive professionally refurbished for a grand with a year warranty. The fellow that owns the machine has recently upgraded to a beautiful Fadal vmc6030 and had apparently had the Y axis fail on the cincinatti about a year ago and got it repaired and then maybe a month or two later the Z failed and he basically decided to just buy the newer much larger machine. SO the good news is I got it for a VERY low price and I pretty much already know what is wrong with it. The bad news is that it has been sitting for over a year now and the batteries in the control died so I will have to refresh the parameters in it before I can run it once the Z is back from repair.

Right now I am hurriedly trying to re-arrange the shop to accept the largest machine I have ever bought. It is about an 8 foot square and a little over eight feet tall. I will probably have to remove some stuff from the top of the machine or possibly dismantle the garage door overhead to get it in the shop but once it is in the ceiling is like 9 and a half feet high so no issues there. Right now the biggest fish I have to fry is the move of the machine. I plan to use my Daughter's Ford F350 diesel dually 4x4 truck and a borrowed heavy equipment trailer to move it here and probably have to rent a large fork truck at both ends. I got a quote from a local CNC mover and he told me he would move it and place/level it for $1200.00 . I thought that was a bit much so I am gonna probably do it myself. Having moved quite a few large machines over the years for myself and my employers I feel confident in this. However this will be by far the largest machine I have ever owned. It weighs around 7k lbs and I am so excited to finally have a REAL vmc. I realize this is not the best or the brightest VMC out there but for my meager money it is a HUGE step up from my little RF45. It has Cat40 tooling, rigid tapping, a 20 tool carousel changer, a 20x20x20 machining envelope, and is fourth axis capable. I have lots to do to prepare for the big move and I hope to bring her here in about a week and a half. Wish me luck guys as I move into the next phase of my CNC evolution. hehe peace

Pete

[Fastest1]

Cool! When do the pics start flowing? If I was in Tennessee, I would come help you move it! I will be in Brownsville in early July LOL.

[pete from TN]

I had planned to snap some pics when I actually went over to buy the machine but I was kinda excited and nervous about it so I just basically totally zoned on the pics. It is in real good overall condition and he said he was running it right up until the Z went out on him. He makes some VERY LARGE molds and he really needed to upgrade to the 6030 fadal. Ya know it is interesting that when you look at pictures of the different VMC's online it is really hard to get a feel for the actual size. That Fadal of his is really huge. I mean I had always thought I could maybe fit a 4020 in my shop but if that 6030 is any indication of the size of the 4020 it would probably have taken up most of my shop just for that one machine. There is NO way the 6030 would even fit in my shop at all. It is really massive. The table looks like you could land a freakin' plane on it. Honestly the Cincinatti should be more than enough machine for me. If I need to whittle on a part larger than the table can hold I can always either cut or remove one of the enclosure side pieces. In fact looking at the Cincinatti and especially in youtube videos of this particular style of machine running it always appears to be quite dark in the enclosure. It does have a large waterproof machining light inside it but I think they all do. So I was actually thinking I might cut two large windows in the sides of the enclosure and install some rubber gaskets and some heavy plexiglass or acrylic windows to not only let light in but also to make it possible to remove for inserting large material pieces. Not sure yet but that may actually happen. The machine has two large chip troughs one on each side and the coolant trough is behind the machine on the left side. It does not apparently have an oil tramp skimmer so I will have to improvise something. The machine has a 6 or 6.5k spindle I cannot remember which and it is a 10HP spindle motor. I intend to run it off a rotary phase converter that will be built or bought depending on what I find price wise. I am also gonna try to order some new toolholders from Maritool or possibly shars to get me started. Unfortunately his new Fadal is also a Cat40 machine so he said he cannot afford to let go of any of his tooling. I was not surprised about this due to the price I paid for the mill. Right now it is just sitting in his shop under a heavy coat of dust from sitting for so long and it could really use a cleanup and wipedown. That will have to wait until I get it here probably because I do not wish to annoy him while he is working in his shop. He is a pretty impressive fellow. He makes HUGE molds that have to be moved with a fork truck and are made from chunks of steel and aluminum that cost like seven thousand dollars each. From what he was telling me it takes him a month or more to machine a mold and they sell for like $30-40k!! Nice money if you know how to do that stuff. He had been making molds for many years and actually used the Cincinatti machine for quite a few years to make smaller molds. He did say it actually has a nicer control feature wise than the fadal but it is a little slower in the full 3d movements than the fadal. He said if I run it at maybe 2/3rds of what you would normally want to run a 3d job at it works fine and make some nice cuts. He even showed me one of the molds in some pictures he made on the Cinci. If I can do ANYTHING like that with this machine I will be very pleased.

I have so much to do and so much work to do to on the shop I am a bit overwhelmed but the good news is that I am now the proud owner of the machine and even if it takes awhile to get it sorted and moved that is okay because it is MINE!! hehehe Peace

Pete

[LUCKY13]

Cool Pete, and yes good luck with the machine in every way.


I am kinda wandering about the two axis that has blown back to back. I would look into this with other machine owners and see if there may be a common reason for such problems. IDK I am thinkinig maybe a power supply that is over volting or such (might need some new caps installed)?


Given the age the capasitors getting leaky would be a good bet, and maybe even what it would take to repair the old drives. I run into this with power supplies and other boards all the time. The caps are so cheap its a easy try for fixing and if no go its no big loss.


Get her home and cleaned up and get some pics going. You might even get some good close up pics of the boards to see if there is something someone may spot as a problem. 1 g for a repair is not bad, but if you can fix it for 10 dollars thats a big difference. Now the power supply caps will probably be muich more than 10 dollars, but whatever they cost it may be a good safety net to replace them.


Jess

[pete from TN]

Thanks for the ideas man. These boards are actually like individual boxes with multiple boards in each box. I am gonna maybe take apart the Z drive to see if there is something silly inside there that I can easily repair but honestly that price with a year guarantee by the original manufacturer is kinda tempting. I am not really concerned about the somewhat back to back drive failures as the machine is a little older but it is not ancient by any means. The machine will also come with a spare new in the box X or Y axis drive. So I already have a back up for the other two drives. The machine under his use was running some rather complex code and lots of 3d movement probably more than it ever will under my command so I think it was just coincidental. It was a couple months between the two failures too I just said that so you guys would understand that he was just ready to move on to another machine that is newer and larger.

I will look at the PPS and see if there is anything obvious there. Again he said there was nothing wrong with the machine other than the Z drive failure and he was running it right up until it faulted. I really hope this machine will run for me and the fact that the original control is still supported is very cool so I can at least get the electronics pieces anytime I need them without rummaging around for them. Apparently the control is quite capable and uses some neat features that are pretty cool. Worst case scenario the whole control is shot and I can actually sell the working bits for enough money to pay for some quite nice retrofit controls. I REALLY hope I do not have to go that route at least for some time and I do not see that happening. He even has a couple reduntant boards that he bought kinda just in case including a multifunction board that ties into all of the drives somehow. He even had a used spindle drive board but he said he did not know if it was good or not. He is giving me a large box of the appropriate retention lugs for the toolholders and some other odds and ends. All in all I got a really good deal and from the sale of the RF45 I have enough cash to hopefully make the necessary repairs, move the machine here, and maybe buy the power converter. I would LOVE to save some cash and build my own converter but I know little about them. This machine will probably require a 15HP converter to run off my 50 amp single phase circuit I have dedicated to the machine now. What sucks is there was a fellow in knoxville selling a nearly new 10HP phase converter for like $600.00 recently. I did not think it was large enough to run the mill so I did not contact him.

I am so excited to be able to get this machine. It should be able to quite literally run circles around the RF45 with ease and it comes WITH a toolchanger. I had planned to eventually build one for the RF45 but now I do not have to hehe... The machine while pretty damn big tho is actually quite small as VMC's go. It only takes up around 76 inches wide, by around 86 inches deep so the actual floor space is not all that much larger than the RF45 and enclosure I had build which was around 76 inches wide and maybe five feet deep including the trays for the keyboard and the toolrack. The difference here being that it needs to have room around it to be able to remove the chip trays and access the coolant and control panel. Maybe a foot or two either way. Should be pretty cool.... Can't wait. Peace

Pete

[TOTALLYRC]

Hi Pete,
Nice to see that dreams sometimes do come true.

I will keep watching to see how it progresses from here.
Mike

[LUCKY13]

Hi Pete,
Nice to see that dreams sometimes do come true.

I will keep watching to see how it progresses from here.
Mike

You got to love it, he sounds like a kid at christmas, and rightfully so.

It just goes to show just how much even a benchtop hobby class machine can do for us. Without it I dont think he would be at this point, and even though there may have been times it seemed a bit overwelming it still helped to reach a point that made this possible. With the help of products like Gecko and Mach that made things possible that where not before, it has helped to open doors for many people that where just not there. And like Pete's RF-45, he may have wanted/needed more out of what he built, but atleast it was affordable and within reach to build, and without it, this may have not been possible.



BTW Pete, dont forget about the Mom's in your life! The machine will be there afterwards(group)


Jess

[pete from TN]

Thanks guys, Yeah I guess I am kinda like a kid at Christmas. Only problem is SANTA is not bringing all this stuff here...and it ain't FREE!! heheh I am now shopping for a decent 20hp CNC rated Rotary phase converter to run this thing and it is looking like a grand plus to get it done. Kinda steep but honestly I can run more than just the mill with this. I can run my lathe too and anything else I buy that might be three phase. If this machine does anything like I HOPE it will for me I am quite sure I will be selling one or both of my manual lathes and picking up a small commercial CNC lathe at some point too. As I said I truly enjoy this stuff and while it has been very challenging for me to learn it the reality is that it is quite interesting and fun. The finished products from a cnc mill are quite impressive and I have been able to make some cash here and there that makes all this worthwhile. I will be sure to post pics of the move and the install and whatnot here for all of you to enjoy. The machine is not a brand spanking new one and honestly is not the best or brightest either but it is what I can afford, it should be light years more capable than the RF45 ever could hope to be. The 10hp spindle and additional 5-6 thousand pounds will do that for ya hehee...

You are quite right tho about the RF45. That machine served me very very well over a decade plus of time and if I do not count my time building the CNC which was considerable I actually made money on the machine and parts when I sold it. The money it made me I think probably put it in the win column for sure and the education I got building it and learning to use it has been invaluable to me. I sincerely hope that much of the way I ran the RF45 can be translated to the Cincinatti machine with some subtle changes here and there on the different control.

Funny thing is that I am NOT the first one to go this route. Our own SKUDZUKI actually had a CNC'd RF45 in his shop awhile back and wound up selling it and bought this exact same machine I am buying with the same control and he still has it today. The difference here tho is that he has a day job and uses the VMC for his giggles and to make the odd item for buddies and his Race bike stuff. I hope to lean on him a bit to help me get started with the new machine and learning the control. Honestly there are not a ton of machines that can fit into a garage space, run on home power and have this kind of capabilities so you really need to do some thinking and shopping. If I had more money I would have tried to spring for a Fadal but it is just not in the cards right now. This Cincinatti is pretty well regarded by those who own them that I have spoken to so I have high hopes it will be good to me. Lots of work to do right now prepping the shop, getting the Phase converter hooked up and running, selecting some reasonably priced Cat40 tooling to get started with, and then just basically addressing the machine's issues and learning to use it. It WILL be an adventure that I hope will be a positive one and bring me into some kinda more professional business situation that I can take on jobs that I would have been apprehensive to try before.

Thanks again guys for the insight, ideas, advice, etc. It has been really fun and cool. I just bought a small manual tubing roller for my shop and I am building a heavy duty tubing bender so I can also make custom roll cages, bumpers, racks, you name it. The guy who has sold me the Cincinatti also has a very nice CNC plasma table that he said he would make me a good deal on. If I can get this machine here and running and hopefully making some money I may actually try to buy that machine too and that would really round out my capabilities. At some point I hope to either get a larger shop or build one on my property here. We STILL want to move back to Florida and if we can get our house squared away in the midst of all this stuff we are gonna put it up for sale and make that move. My life is seemingly always evolving into something else and sometimes I feel pretty crazy but hey that is me in a nutshell. Wish me luck guys I am GONNA NEED IT!!!! hehe peace

Pete

[pete from TN]

I have made some good progress here. I just made a deal on a VERY nice and powerful 20HP CNC rated Rotary phase converter to run the new VMC. I also found a couple local places that have agreed to rent me a heavy duty forklift for the move and I have secured a heavy equipment trailer from a kind friend that will be attached to his 3500 Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel. Now all that is left is tidying up the shop and making room for the machine in there and also opening up my garage door header to allow this monster in. I am getting more and more excited about this and I am planning to move the machine sometime next week. Stay tuned for the big move pictures!!! haha peace

Pete

[rwskinner]

Hey Pete, thats awesome. Can't wait to see some pics and chips flying.
I guess that means your officially kicked out of the benchtop section <double grin>

Richard

[pete from TN]

Hey thanks man I am very excited about the new machine. It is gonna take some work and some time but I am optimistic I will be a member of the VMC club really soon. The machine is a bit dirty but it is in very good shape overall. I will be cleaning it for a week probably but hey that will give me a chance to really check it out and lube and check stuff.

Honestly I am actually probably going to try to pick up a little round column mill again to keep in the shop for a drill press/manual mill. Actually whatever I can pick up for a song.... I have been pretty lucky lately with purchases. I actually have bought my daughters a little 50cc chinese quadrunner awhile back from a friend for $100.00 and fixed it and they have used it for a year or two. They recently told me that they wanted an offroad go kart. So I put the quadrunner on Craigslist and sold it today for $350.00 and almost immediately found a nice single seat nearly new big offroad tired manco Go kart with a six HP tecumseh motor and bought it tonight for $375.00!! It runs real good and I was hauling ass around the yard in it. I took it out on the street and floored it and I do not know how fast I was going but I was grinning from ear to ear. It is quite fast and rides nice. It even pulls my 6' 230 pound arse around pretty easily. I think the centrifugal clutch could use an adjustment and the motor is runnning real strong but could use some adjustment as well and one time I went flying across the yard and hit a rather large bump in the transition to my driveway and caught some air but when it landed the chain fell off. I popped it back on but I think the chain needs to be tighter. I think you can just skootch the motor up in it's mounts a tad. Lots of fun but I am gonna also put some kinda throttle stop on it because if it can go that damn fast with me in it I can just imagine how fast it will go with my five year old in it... hehe FUN STUFF!!


I got a great deal on the Rotary converter and the good news is it is a GWM which is a well regarded and expensive unit. From speaking to the local dealer of them ( they are now smith motors or something like that) he said the machine was like $2500.00 new and is one of the better rotaries available anywhere. The pictures he sent it looks brand spanking new too... I am pretty pleased with the deal I made...

I cannot wait to be able to hog some metal with this baby and make some neat stuff and hopefully some money for my family. Pretty cool stuff!!! Peace


Pete

[pete from TN]

Made it over there to work on the machine and managed to get it powered up. It has apparently lost its parameters as I suspected but luckily I have someone who has all that information. I am trying to source an older laptop so that I can install them back into the machine via a serial port connection. I was very happy to see the control boot up and that the control panel was working.

I managed to remember to snap a few photos of the machine on my cell phone. It is still very dirty and really needs a good bath but that will come once it is in my shop. Anyways, as promised here are some pics of the machine. I will also try to take some pics of the move. Peace

Pete

[Rescue35]

Drool... I so NEED one of those. I don't know why but I'm sure I could use it for something.

[pete from TN]

I know what you mean man. I have been DROOLING over these kind of machines for a very long time. It took me a couple years to get one and it is a fixer upper. This machine I hope to use to make the start of my CNC and fabrication shop adventure. I already work from my home doing Tig welding and fabrication and I have been learning the CNC end of things slowly. Now I am hoping to really step up to a nice machine here and be able to do a lot more cool stuff and more automatically on some larger run production jobs. It needs a bit of work but it should be a real nice machine once I get it sorted. I just heard from the fellow I purchased my new Rotary Phase converter from and he said it should be delivered sometime monday. I am gonna try to get that monster mounted in a nice out of the way spot near my shop entryway door so I can flick it on when I come in.

There are many things I hope to be doing with this machine and I have some ideas for products that I can make to sell myself. Some of them I was apprehensive to try on my RF45 but they should be a breeze with this new machine. I cannot wait to see it in my shop....

I know this is no longer a BENCHTOP machine and I do not want to post too much about this machine here since it is not pertinent to the other goings on in this forum but I have been here for awhile now and I have kinda evolved from not knowing a thing about CNC to building my own Conversion to learning to run it, and now to purchasing a VMC... It has been kind of a progression of my learning and skills to feel like this was even possible. I have many here to thank for that information and knowledge. Peace

Pete

[1HobbyMachinist]

Ah, don't sweat it. You just need a bigger bench!

[Hans_G]

bigger bench... that's funny. Pete, I want to keep up with your continued adventures too. If you start another thread somewhere else, please post a link here so I can subscribe.

[pete from TN]

I am undecided about a thread on this machine. I mean I would like to chronicle my adventures with it and kinda show you guys what it takes to not only buy one of these kind of machines used but also to get it delivered and get it running and hopefully make parts on it. I hope I am successful in this endeavor because I am gonna have a lot of money invested in it before it is all said and done. I am considering starting a progress thread in the Cincinatti forum here on the metalworking end of the zone and will probably do that soon but I may keep updating this thread here too. Only thing is that the Cincinatti forum here seems pretty dead.

The machine is DEFINITELY not a benchtop machine unless you consider a heavy concrete slab several inches thick atop sturdy ground a benchtop...hehehe The machine is actually quite compact for it's size altho the only unfortunate part is that it has a very large electronics cabinet on the back right corner of the machine that contains all of the electronics bits. This cabinet is really tied into the machine and stands over 90 inches tall. I had considered removing it to get it into the shop and then reinstalling it but I think I have opted to actually remove the overhead on my shop garage building above the garage door and make it easily removable so in case I move (likely) or sell or upgrade to a different machine down the road a bit it will be easy to do that.

I spoke to the shipper yesterday and he informed me that the very heavy duty rotary phase converter I bought will be here on monday morning. I can't wait to see it. peace

Pete

[FannBlade]

Are the rotary phase converters noisy? I don't know how they work,,,but sounds like "rotary" means it turns like a motor.
Great find on your new benchtop machine. I will be glued to this thread and hope my jealously doesn't show to much.

[Al_The_Man]

Project moved to Cincinnati forum.
Al.

[pete from TN]

what is this supposed to mean here guys? Is my build some kinda joke here? Nice that the posts were removed without even a PM telling me so.....

Pete