[Shalecnc]

I'm trying to select a spindle for my DIY 8020 build, and have decided on a 1.5kw water-cooled spindle with VFD.

Lot's of retailers seem to be selling the same basic 1.5kw design, but at very different prices. For example:

- Ebay: Prices for a 1.5kw spindle+VFD range between $162-$300
- Ugra CNC 1.5kw spindle = $275 + $?? for VFD
- Automation Technology (KL-1500)1.5k spindle = $299 + $180 for VFD

Are these all the same identical product, with just different brand names? Will I get a more reliable product buying from the more expensive retailers, or are they all the same identical device, made by the same Chinese manufacturer?

I don't want to waste money if I'm just buying the same identical spindle at a higher price.

[ger21]

With the Chinese spindles, there's really no way to know where they are made, and whether they are the same or different. You really don't even know exactly what you're getting in most cases.

It's very possible that you may get a nearly identical spindle to the UGRA or Automation Tech. spindles from an Ebay seller.

But you're leaving out the typical $100 cost of shipping from China. And if you have a problem, you'll need to ship it back to China, and possibly pay for a replacement to be shipped back to you.
Being in the US, UGRA and Automation Tech should be easier to get a warranty issue resolved without the high costs of shipping.

Also, are you aware that the 1.5Kw spindles can't use 1/2" shank bits? That's why most people go for the 2.2Kw version, as the prices are not much different.

[Shalecnc]

Thanks Gerry. -- Looking at the manual for the Keling VFD, it's identical (minus the cover page) to the manual for the Huan Yang VFD sold by cncdiy.com, which makes me think the Keling is just a re-badged Huan Yang. (Of course like you pointed out, there's no way to tell if either are actually made by Huan Yang or just 3rd party copies.)

I'm thinking the eBay sellers that are (allegedly) in the US are a safer bet since I don't have to worry about overseas shipping, but not sure...

Question about the 2.2 kw spindles -- will those work on 110v power? I can't re-wire my rented garage.

[ger21]

I'm thinking the eBay sellers that are (allegedly) in the US are a safer bet since I don't have to worry about overseas shipping, but not sure...

I haven't looked lately, but didn't know that there were any in the US?

Question about the 2.2 kw spindles -- will those work on 110v power? I can't re-wire my rented garage.

I don't know about the Huan Yang, but I believe you can get a VFD that will work on 110V. Do some research before ordering, though.

[JerryBurks]

Question about the 2.2 kw spindles -- will those work on 110v power? I can't re-wire my rented garage.

Not that I know of. I have a 1.5kW and 2.2kW Chinese VFD and a 2.2kW Hitachi and they all run on 220 V.

There may be an option, though....while I have now 220V in the garage for many years I did not.

I ran the 220V VFD of my wood lathe spindle for long time off a 2kW step-up transformer (admittedly a big fat lump) from the 110V outlet. Only problem was I had to plug it into an outlet without ground fault interrupter or it would trip.

[ger21]

I just looked at the VFD's at Automation Direct, and it looks like the limit for their VFD's on 110V is 1HP.

[crane550]

As for VFD's, I know that if you go from a 3 phase to single phase 220 you need to double the rating of your spindle, or de-rate the VFD by 50%. Not sure what the rule is if your going to 110V single phase.

[Shalecnc]

Crane550-- sorry I don't exactly understand what you mean by de-rating if you go with single phase 220 vs 3 phase 220v. Does that mean the 2.2 kw spindle will only produce 1.1kw, using single phase 220 input to the VFD?

[crane550]

That is correct. I would't think about it as "only produce 1.1kw", but rather is "only rated for 1.1kw." Make sense?

For example, if you have a 3kw spindle, your looking at just under 5HP. This means you need an inverter rated at least 10HP to run single phase. This was my case when shopping. The good news is if you upgrade your power later you can also switch to a bigger spindle.

I highly recommend the Hitachi x200.

Alex

[BanduraMaker]

For example, if you have a 3kw spindle, your looking at just under 5HP. This means you need an inverter rated at least 10HP to run single phase. This was my case when shopping.

I think you're misunderstanding or mis-stating something. A 3kw vfd will run up to a 3kw spindle at full power.

I have. 2.2kw wj200 running my 2kw spindle off of 220 single phase and it works just fine. Me thinks you over bought by double.

[JerryBurks]

I think you're misunderstanding or mis-stating something. A 3kw vfd will run up to a 3kw spindle at full power.

I have. 2.2kw wj200 running my 2kw spindle off of 220 single phase and it works just fine. Me thinks you over bought by double.

I agree. My Hitachi X200-022NFU (2.2kW) is specified to run either on 3 phase or a single phase and the manual does not mention any de-rating (neither does the Chinese VFD).

Obviously, when you draw the entire power from a single phase it will need much more current than distributed on 3 phase source. But a 15 amp circuit should be sufficient in any case for 2.2 kW.

The reason that they need 220V in the first place if that the spindle motor needs that voltage for full power. The VFD converts the frequency but does not have internal facilities to boost the voltage and therefore you get only as much as you put in.

[crane550]

Maybe I should clarify- there different models, and some are designed for use with single phase. These are the models with an S leading the last four letters in the model number. These do not need to be de-rated, as they are designed for single phase. Problem is they get VERY expensive as the rated energy goes up.

You can get an explanation of the model numbers here:
http://www.hitachi-america.us/suppor...ency-drive.pdf

The N, L and H all need to be de-rated by 50%. I spend hours researching after virtually every supplier I asked said same thing. Hitachi manual verifies.

Power Source
N : 1 or 3-phase 200V class
S : 1-phase 200V class
L : 3-phase 200V class
H : 3-phase 400V class

[crane550]

Some more explanation:

FAQ :: VFDs | How Do I Derate Three Phase Inputs For Single Phase Applications? | Precision Electric, Inc.

http://www.hitachi-america.us/suppor...ngle-Phase.pdf

[Shalecnc]

Thanks - this really answers my questions. So hard to find clear information on this, when there's no manuals for the Chinese VFDs!

[BanduraMaker]

That makes more sense but I still don't see anything in the manuals you've posted that would lead me to believe you'd have to de-rate the s or n series for a 2.2 kW spindle when running on single phase. 220v x 10A = 2.2kW

What you post makes sense for running a 3 phase VFD on single.

[ger21]

I'm with Andy. If the S is specified to be either single phase or 3 phase, it doesn't need to be de-rated, from what I read in the links you posted.

[phuang3]

Sorry to bring up this old topic again. A 1.5KW motor will only produce 1.5KW power at full speed. At half speed, it's 750W, and so on. The price difference of those spindle motors is due to several reasons. The material of internal wiring is one, and most importantly the bearing which it used. A good Chinese spindle motor with imported ceramic bearings (usually 3, but some have 4) could be as high as $400 in China.

[wizard]

Thanks Gerry. -- Looking at the manual for the Keling VFD, it's identical (minus the cover page) to the manual for the Huan Yang VFD sold by cncdiy.com, which makes me think the Keling is just a re-badged Huan Yang. (Of course like you pointed out, there's no way to tell if either are actually made by Huan Yang or just 3rd party copies.)

I'm thinking the eBay sellers that are (allegedly) in the US are a safer bet since I don't have to worry about overseas shipping, but not sure...

Question about the 2.2 kw spindles -- will those work on 110v power? I can't re-wire my rented garage.

The simple answer is no it won't work. The problem is you can't pull 2.2KW out of a 15 amp 120 VAC outlet. That figure is ignoring all other power the machine will draw. So in reality you have the potential for more than 2.2 KW of power being drawn.

Now the amount of power a machine draws varies with workload so you might have some success with the larger spindle but you would never be able to leverage its full potential. This doesn't even address the variability you will get in breaker behavior from one load center manufacture to another. The last thing you want your machine to do is to trio a breaker half way through a program. Due to this I normally reccomend sizing components to not exceed 80% of a breakers rating at full load when you don't have the ability to rewire the premises.

[wizard]

One the subject of drive derating, you need to consult the manual or possibly tech support if the power rating for single phase isn't clearly spelt out. The way I understand this is that the usual limiter for single phase operation is the internal rectifier that the incoming AC Is feed to. That is can the diodes handle the single phase current required to make full use of the drive. In the past you could get a tech rep to tell you what a specific drive can handle when being used with single phase input. Today, probably due to popularity of VFD, many are specced out in the available documentation.

So what you may or may not have to derate is dependent upon the manufacture, the series of the drive and and the specific model within a series of drives.