[jamessiffel]

I don't know a better way to phrase it, but I wanted to discuss the pros and cons of ideas surrounding solutions for better shop/employee management. (Example) I want to utilize tool life management, monitoring, and other technology to reduce scrap, increase productivity, keep machines(and workers) safer to reduce downtime and minimize damaged tooling,etc.... Basically make a shop and everyone in it more money, less tired, and less stress. A huge factor is also the dying breed of skilled machinists, and how to replace them through training the younger ones without old beat up machines lying around for them to cut their teeth on! Is there a current forum to address this in or could we start one? I feel it is of great importance to any shop out there right now!

[thesePAPERwalls]

I supposed this is as good a place as any, others might disagree. What type of work does your shop do? How many employees. why types of machines/tooling do you use? Large volumes or onesies and twosies ? CAD/CAM support? :drowning:

[txcncman]

I don't know a better way to phrase it, but I wanted to discuss the pros and cons of ideas surrounding solutions for better shop/employee management. (Example) I want to utilize tool life management, monitoring, and other technology to reduce scrap, increase productivity, keep machines(and workers) safer to reduce downtime and minimize damaged tooling,etc.... Basically make a shop and everyone in it more money, less tired, and less stress. A huge factor is also the dying breed of skilled machinists, and how to replace them through training the younger ones without old beat up machines lying around for them to cut their teeth on! Is there a current forum to address this in or could we start one? I feel it is of great importance to any shop out there right now!

There is error in your logic. When jobs get easier, companies either pay less money or use less employees so the owners can keep money in their pockets or put more money in their pockets. It is never, ever about the guy on the shop floor benefiting (other than he has a low paying job). But we can discuss all of the pros and cons you wish about shop owners making more money.

The first thing you should consider is investing the shop owner's money now, in their future. Most shop owners would do this because they want that money in their bank accounts now, not more money later.

[jamessiffel]

First to Paperwalls, aerospace, 100+ guys, mostly large production, very good support on very nice newer machinery. Second to Txcncman, yes I understand the debate on the shop owner/managers/supervisors vs. the machinists. What part of my logic is not flawed is that these ways of machining in manufacturing are already here and inevitable. You can't beat the machines! Remember John Henry?(google it) the opportunity money wise for the shop worker is 1. You'll actually have a job when they finally do start laying off the DEAD WEIGHT, because you'll understand it. 2. As years go by there isn't going to be machinists knocking at the door(only willing trainees that will need your teaching) 3. Once someone like you can run, monitor, set up, troubleshoot an Automation cell(for example) if you leave, they are screwed. It's no different now when you need a raise you threaten to leave, that's not going to change. What will change is you'll have more bargaining power. Let's face it Joe schmoe who only wants to push a button and doesn't want to learn anymore is an unemployed worker waiting to happen. And sorry but if your like me, I was tired of watching Joe schmoe make the same as me for doing less, no matter how much I liked him personally. Remember this is inevitable, you have to get what's yours, this isn't the world,country, or shop your father grew up in, this is the hard reality. The quicker we(the so inclined) embrace this and act accordingly the better off we will be. And those guys who didn't want to work hard, who are destined for unemployment anyway, do you really feel bad for them? I don't !

[txcncman]

First to Paperwalls, aerospace, 100+ guys, mostly large production, very good support on very nice newer machinery. Second to Txcncman, yes I understand the debate on the shop owner/managers/supervisors vs. the machinists. What part of my logic is not flawed is that these ways of machining in manufacturing are already here and inevitable. You can't beat the machines! Remember John Henry?(google it) the opportunity money wise for the shop worker is 1. You'll actually have a job when they finally do start laying off the DEAD WEIGHT, because you'll understand it. 2. As years go by there isn't going to be machinists knocking at the door(only willing trainees that will need your teaching) 3. Once someone like you can run, monitor, set up, troubleshoot an Automation cell(for example) if you leave, they are screwed. It's no different now when you need a raise you threaten to leave, that's not going to change. What will change is you'll have more bargaining power. Let's face it Joe schmoe who only wants to push a button and doesn't want to learn anymore is an unemployed worker waiting to happen. And sorry but if your like me, I was tired of watching Joe schmoe make the same as me for doing less, no matter how much I liked him personally. Remember this is inevitable, you have to get what's yours, this isn't the world,country, or shop your father grew up in, this is the hard reality. The quicker we(the so inclined) embrace this and act accordingly the better off we will be. And those guys who didn't want to work hard, who are destined for unemployment anyway, do you really feel bad for them? I don't !

What you are implying is the jobs don't get easier, as what I took your first posting to mean. What I have experienced is that the jobs continue to get more complicated, and so do the machines used to do the jobs. Part of this is to make products better. Part it is due to poor designers. Again, there is no reward in manufacturing, except at the highest levels, for working any harder. Anyone with the brains to be a machinist these days is better served to go work in finance for about equal pay and a lot less risk. Two of my kids have done just that and I do not blame them one bit. Smart kids.

[RalphWilson]

I don't know a better way to phrase it, but I wanted to discuss the pros and cons of ideas surrounding solutions for better shop/employee management. (Example) I want to utilize tool life management, monitoring, and other technology to reduce scrap, increase productivity, keep machines(and workers) safer to reduce downtime and minimize damaged tooling,etc.... Basically make a shop and everyone in it more money, less tired, and less stress. A huge factor is also the dying breed of skilled machinists, and how to replace them through training the younger ones without old beat up machines lying around for them to cut their teeth on! Is there a current forum to address this in or could we start one? I feel it is of great importance to any shop out there right now!

I have been a machinist since 1982 and I have been in many shops, I have only had the pleasure in the last two years of being able to play with the big toys, " The Fadal VMC's ". I love them. I have so much fun with them , pushing buttons and programming them to do what a manual machinist of my yesteryear only dreamed of.

And because I get into making parts better I have the ability to tweak the programs to ether make better quality parts or faster run times.

As a manual machinist I had the ability to feel the machine cut the stock, and thus save a cutter or push it to it's limit with out reqard of braking it.

As a CNC machinist I lost the feel and now am learning to use my other senses to do things better. I still hold my hand on the window and feel the machine as it cuts, but it's not the same.



Tool management is very tricky to implement and if it is not easy , most operators are ..... operators.

Give me a print , point me to the stock, and I make the parts..... repeat.

I can look at a existing setup and always find ways to improve it or come up with ways to cheaply setup and get the job done, but sometimes my ideas scare my boss. that's his job to keep me in check.

[jamessiffel]

To Ralph, you are exactly the kind of machinist to make this historic time in machining happen! Your ideas and background are what is needed to implement the structure for manufacturing in our country grow and remain strong! And yes I still do lean on the door during set up to "feel" everything going on!
To Txcncman, good job on getting the kids into something more rewarding! I love what I do, and yes I need to get paid for using my brain! The way I look at it, the ways of the past are just a lingering ghost, the technology and the automation are here, just waiting for the ones with the drive to make it the law of the land. And if the current employer doesn't appreciate me making them more money, I'll just find One who does, or go to work for the heavyweights and get paid the top dollar. Everything's changing whether anyone likes it or not, personally I see a bright, fascinating future!

[jamessiffel]

It needs to be said to that with in process gaging, cmms, and the current software, inspectors are all but obsolete. I'm sure plenty wouldn't mind this at all, since most are just a pretty show for the customers anyway, albeit expensive ones. I'm not in favor of any reduction of good paying jobs, but the writing is on the walls, you either see it or you stand in the unemployment line.

[GONorman]

I worked for a company that had about 75 employees, several Hyundai 18s, a couple Mori Seki lathes, a few mills for a total of about 20 machines. I ran a centerless grinder for about seven years there. Usually 3 or 4 days a month I would run one of the lathes, either a Hyundai or a HAAS, simple jobs usually face off, drill, tap, chamfer. Push a button, adjust offsets, change inserts. Grinding was where I was knowledgeable in all aspects of the operation.

I no longer work there, but was hired by a shop with much bigger machines, doing much more complex parts. Huge Mori Sekis and Mazaks, several cmm machines, but only one really small centerless grinder that I have seen running once in two weeks. They don't need a person to grind, they need a cnc machinist. I told them before they hired me that I had ran (pushed a button) a cnc a couple days a month for about 7 years. I have been training for two weeks now, but feel I may be in over my head. I love the work, and I am very grateful they gave me a job and giving me on the job training on a Mori Seki SL-25 and SL-250 but there is much more to learn here compared to an old Cincinnati grinder. They are talking about having me on my own next week, running, setting up, the whole works. I don't want to tear anything up, really want to excel at my job and make lots of quality parts. I'm a quick learner, but... Is this a realistic plan? What do you guys suggest? Thanks for any insight offered.

[txcncman]

I worked for a company that had about 75 employees, several Hyundai 18s, a couple Mori Seki lathes, a few mills for a total of about 20 machines. I ran a centerless grinder for about seven years there. Usually 3 or 4 days a month I would run one of the lathes, either a Hyundai or a HAAS, simple jobs usually face off, drill, tap, chamfer. Push a button, adjust offsets, change inserts. Grinding was where I was knowledgeable in all aspects of the operation.

I no longer work there, but was hired by a shop with much bigger machines, doing much more complex parts. Huge Mori Sekis and Mazaks, several cmm machines, but only one really small centerless grinder that I have seen running once in two weeks. They don't need a person to grind, they need a cnc machinist. I told them before they hired me that I had ran (pushed a button) a cnc a couple days a month for about 7 years. I have been training for two weeks now, but feel I may be in over my head. I love the work, and I am very grateful they gave me a job and giving me on the job training on a Mori Seki SL-25 and SL-250 but there is much more to learn here compared to an old Cincinnati grinder. They are talking about having me on my own next week, running, setting up, the whole works. I don't want to tear anything up, really want to excel at my job and make lots of quality parts. I'm a quick learner, but... Is this a realistic plan? What do you guys suggest? Thanks for any insight offered.

Even with your experience, it is not realistic to transition in 2 weeks. If...IF...they have extremely good set up sheets and instructions, you might get away with it. Most shops don't take time to document what needs to be done on a job with enough detail to be of much use to a complete outsider.

Ask a lot of questions on CNCZone give as much detail as possible. Learn the correct terminology. Take cell phone snaps shots for your own documentation. Let your company know what you are doing so you don't get accused of industrial espionage.

[jamessiffel]

Hey Norman, not sure where your located, but you could gO to Mori Seiki University for proper training in Chicago . East coast mori distributor Maruka can bring an app engineer into your shop and train you at the machine pretty cheap!

[GONorman]

Thanks for the replies- I am in Kansas. As far as setup sheets and instructions, I have not seen one yet. There is a computer terminal by my workstation where I enter the part number and it brings up a list of programs to run that part. I pick the most recent run and send it to the appropriate machine. Then from the machine I can scroll through it and find each tool change to see which tool and insert to use there. Rarely has the program been used exactly as it was ran and saved from the last time though, and I foresee myself spending alot of time searching for tooling that is listed in the program but not what I should be using and maybe not even in the shop. I am reading and trying to learn as much as I can in my spare time, but I think alot of it is going to be hands on, learn as it comes up, frustrating, remember not to do that again type of deal.

[txcncman]

Thanks for the replies- I am in Kansas. As far as setup sheets and instructions, I have not seen one yet. There is a computer terminal by my workstation where I enter the part number and it brings up a list of programs to run that part. I pick the most recent run and send it to the appropriate machine. Then from the machine I can scroll through it and find each tool change to see which tool and insert to use there. Rarely has the program been used exactly as it was ran and saved from the last time though, and I foresee myself spending alot of time searching for tooling that is listed in the program but not what I should be using and maybe not even in the shop. I am reading and trying to learn as much as I can in my spare time, but I think alot of it is going to be hands on, learn as it comes up, frustrating, remember not to do that again type of deal.

Welcome to the Machine Shop of the Present. Sadly, most shops are run this way. James is trying to get people to do better with this thread. Problem is, most of the pros that read this site are already doing the best they can with the limits placed on them by company owners/management. Hobbyist probably don't care much.

If your company will let you, set up tool carts for say 5 jobs out and gather what you think you need while waiting on previous jobs to run. If there are tools missing, this gives a chance to advise management to purchase correct tools (not that they will).

[jamessiffel]

Ask your supervisor for a header and tooling details until you get better acquainted with the shop and their programming style. Keep notes so you can quick reference them for your set ups. Maybe it will influence better procedures ion their part?

[CNCGirl1]

I am all in favor job creation, what I really hate is those owners who dont know a thing about what they are getting into, never ran a machine, never even read a blueprint.

It is very funny that when they hear Computer they think is all magic...

[jamessiffel]

I tell Every employer I've ever had that my goal is to know how to run every machine and be able to do every job including theirs. This never gets received well and goes right over the head of most. I always tell my boss that if I hit the lotto tomorrow I'll buy the best machine I can find and do what I do out of my house. Again not usually good responses. I am very puzzled by alot of attitudes I encounter whether it's owner or supervisor or co worker, we are there to make money,correct? Most act like its some social club, show up, kill time, act like your great at your job. Barely anyone with some notable exceptions I've met want to work hard, constantly innovate, make more money. I've never understood the acceptance and sometimes joy in constant unneeded overtime. You should be able to make what you need(and what they need) in a 40 hour work week with OCCASIONAL overtime, and have a life outside of the shop. That philosophy is so ass backwards. I say let's change, let's evolve, let the technology make our jobs and lives easier, that is the point of it, right?

[christinandavid]

Thanks for the replies- I am in Kansas. As far as setup sheets and instructions, I have not seen one yet. There is a computer terminal by my workstation where I enter the part number and it brings up a list of programs to run that part. I pick the most recent run and send it to the appropriate machine. Then from the machine I can scroll through it and find each tool change to see which tool and insert to use there. Rarely has the program been used exactly as it was ran and saved from the last time though, and I foresee myself spending alot of time searching for tooling that is listed in the program but not what I should be using and maybe not even in the shop. I am reading and trying to learn as much as I can in my spare time, but I think alot of it is going to be hands on, learn as it comes up, frustrating, remember not to do that again type of deal.

I feel for you mate. Something has to change in that place, quick.

There should be a file with a single setting sheet for each operation performed in the CNC department. This should detail the part, material, operation, fixture ID, drawing no., pgm no. It should give a brief explanation of setup. It should list tools with important info re size and clearance required. Having all this info together gives operators a chance to prepare the next operation, assuming that the planning goes that far....

There should only be one program for each operation. If an edit is required and approved, the setting sheet and program should be updated simultaneously. Do not allow programs to be resaved until setting sheet is updated. If anything, it may stop guys editing willy-nilly. Then you may be able to see how long each op actually takes and forward planning can improve.

If the tooling is small and plentiful enough, each operation should have a designated tooling drawer/compartment, even if it's only for the 'special' tools.

If there is no head machinist willing to start implementing these changes it's down to you to go to management. Explain the difficulties you are having, how it is affecting the attitude and productivity on the shop floor. I can't believe any of you are happy working this way.

DP

[christinandavid]

I agree James, some attitudes are very puzzling indeed...


I was surprised by your belief that inspectors are obsolete, especially as you are manufacturing aerospace components. I always found a good quality control system takes a lot of pressure off operators and gives the company a huge advantage over rivals in terms of accreditation and, above all reputation.

DP

[jamessiffel]

David, yes ideally a good quality control dept would take alot of pressure off us, I've never witnessed that though. I've seen sticker slappers, people who sign off and look at nothing, and one weird instance where the inspectors were hell bent on rejecting everything creating never ending, headache inducing arguments . Ultimately it is on us to ensure quality, the inspectors are just a last chance double check and as you inferred a way to get certain contracts and LOOK better than your competition. Go to renishaw's website for just the start of what I mean by that. Or if your lucky enough the IMTS SHOW!

[christinandavid]

I always found it better to leave work knowing that if anything went out wrong it wouldn't be me signing it off, and having evil gits who will move heaven and earth to find something wrong does have the effect of raising the standard...

DP