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Thread: pci express

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7

    Angry pci express

    Hi to all out there, It has been awhile. I would like to know if anyone
    has used pci xpress card's (parrallel port) and mach3
    with newer motherboard's(running windows7) I am trying one at the moment, the new motherboard tell's me everthing is working
    but it does not communicate with my pokey's card to turn the
    rest on.
    Any ideas or info would be helpful,
    thanx(chair)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    28
    Have you looked in device manager, under ports, and checked the address of the parrelell port?
    Just a guess but Mach3 might be expecting the parralell port to be at the default address of LPT1, and your add on card might be set not to use that address to avoid potential conflicts.

    Just a thought, may be way off the mark, but worth checking anyway.
    There are 10 types of people in the world
    Those of us who get binary, and those who don't.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4252
    By and large, PCI/PP cards will drive printers but they will not drive the more 'interactive' devices - such as Mach. Been there, tried that, plop.

    If you want reliability, by an ethernet smooth stepper and go that way. Do not buy the USB version: it is horribly susceptible to noise. (The ethernet protocol EXPECTS noise, and handles it. The PP and USB do not.)

    Cheers

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    91
    PCI express and PCI are functionally identical, as far as OS use of the parallel port is concerned. And more importantly to you, supported.

    It is more likely that there is some mismatch between your system and Mach3.

    All PCIx cards are not made equal... so, it could be the configuration, the card, Mach3 or your PC - remote diagnosis isn't the easiest.

    However, you can be certain that Mach3 handles PCI express Parallel port cards just fine - I have seen them in operation. There is no inherent mismatch.

    The first question is always, has Mach3 worked for you in the past - and if so, what has changed?

    A couple of other questions:

    Did you have the PP card installed at the time you installed Windows?
    Is it a 'reputable' card - is there a manufacturers name or a US FCC ID?
    Do you know the chip that is used to implement the PP?
    How expensive was the card? Cheap enough to bin it and try another, different chip design?
    What motherboard do you have - make and model.
    How stable is your Win7? Any other problems with apps, etc?

    I can find out a lot remotely, and am happy to do so, but you will need to install a piece of remote support software such as TeamViewer, and it relies on a level of trust. You can delete it as soon as the work is done so there is no 'back door'

    I am in Perth timezone... but in Borneo. NZ expat computer jockey with nearly 38 years in fixing this sort of thing...

    PM me if you are interested - I have plenty of spare time.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3757
    remote help with no security problems?
    Use skype and the other party can watch your screen, and guide you along, in real time, by voice commands!
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. Three ways to fix things: The right way, the other way, and maybe your way, which is possibly a faster wrong way.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    3757

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by jonthaynes View Post
    whs


    whs? WTF?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    91
    He posted the same on my other thread - I suspect it is spam.

    As to skype, the remote control is crap compared to TeamViewer and what makes you think there are no security problems? There are always security problems.

    I would rather use a product he can uninstall completely.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2134
    Generally when I've found an add-on card doesn't work properly, it's because windows has a resource conflict, or a BIOS setting is wrong. Have you tried disabling the onboard LPT1 in BIOS, and setting PCI Resource Allocation to "PNP"? You can usually also allocate the HEX addresses to slots on the motherboard if you still have trouble.

    If you disable the onboard LPT1, you can generally safely re-use the same default address of LPT1=0x378 for the card, but usually I've found a lot of the cheaper cards are hard wired to a set address range which could conflict with a sound, network, or some other slot or card address. Also try disabling the onboard serial or COM ports, and the network, and audio chips, one by one to ensure no IRQ issues if it's an older style motherboard. Check the card at each stage to ensure it's getting the right address and IRQ if you end up having to do that.

    cheers,
    Ian
    It's rumoured that everytime someone buys a TB6560 based board, an engineer cries!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3757
    I've disabled onboard before.
    Turned on PNP in the BIOS.
    Then the PCI card worked.
    Shut down.
    Reboot into BIOS.
    Disable PNP, and reenable onboard LPT
    Then both worked. I now leave PNP off once everything works.
    My settings don't change, that way, I have found.
    Might be different for various board combinations.
    And fiddle the ECP settings too, and disable interrupts for the LPT worked for me.
    Disable DMA stuff too, if possible will make Mach3 work cleaner too.
    Good luck.
    When all is working, you can boot a floppy and all the ports are there.
    That was a longgggg time ago.
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. Three ways to fix things: The right way, the other way, and maybe your way, which is possibly a faster wrong way.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4252

    re PP cards

    Generally when I've found an add-on card doesn't work properly, it's because windows has a resource conflict,
    Yes, that is one class of problem which can be solved.

    There is another class of problem however. The original MOS chip used for LPT1 was a complex beast with many extra functions, way beyond what was used for the simple LPT interface. Modern emulators can drive the pins as an LPT, but they do not provide the extra functions which the chip had. (Why should they?)

    Now, if all you want is 'LPT' then they are fine, but if your software wants to access those extra functions ... you are stiff out of luck. The original PicoDataLogger ADC11 used those extra functions, and no emulator has been found which can drive it. But an old IBM ThinkPad with a 'genuine LPT' port can. So, ...

    What does Mach3 require? Opinions differ, but if someone have managed to get brand-X emulator to work reliably, that would be great. I have not heard of any easy solutions yet, but I would love to.

    Cheers

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7

    pci express

    hi & thanks for everyone's input.Will try all the advise & will keep you posted on progress.
    cheers

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    71
    Modbus in Mach - MachCustomizeWiki
    Heres a quick primer about comms and mach 3.
    Serial comms ie RS232 and RS 485 (2wire and 4 Wire) variants are normal comms for machinery.
    Paralell port or LTP1 comms are effectively 8 Serial ports in one but with noise issues into the equation hence why the preference for a protocol that handles noise better.
    In this regard the sooner Mach 3 goes toward something like CanBus the better.
    Anyhow the biggest problems are in the changes as to how Visual Basic.Net and Visual Basic for applications (VBA) handle serial comms.
    Believe me compared to the old Visual basic from the Dos Era serial comms have become a nightmare for many people with Later Operating systems.
    Much of this has to do with the basic architecture of modern operating systems where commands run in differing levels such as Ring 0,Ring 1 etc the operating systems today reserve Ring 0 purely for low level OS use only and this is where comms can come unstuck as much of the Machinery software has been cobbled together working from older Dos based software with patches and rewrite of code as needed.

    Under Dos operating systems programs had direct unfettered acess to hardware ports so it was simply a case of making sure the correct address was used and it generally worked,However as touched on in an earlier post later operating systems either Unix.Linux or Windows systems have an ability to dynamically allocate adresses whenever they reboot unless you go out of your way to lock in a fixed adress.

    Remember many Industrial applications are only shut down for maintenance so the problems are not encountered as often, Good advice was given regarding locking down memory adress allocations earlier make sure you use it.
    Another option is as I linked up the top going Modbus or ethernet also a possibility.

    But if you search programming forums about implementing effective device comms you will soon realise that changes to both operating systems and high level programming languages used in software have created issues for all who want to impliment PC to machine interfaces especially in the software fields.
    So if those who actually write the software are having issues with older comms standards as used in many machines and how to implement them under modern operating systems then it becomes obvious that as pointed out before it becoms vital to research exactly what combinations work well together and try to stick to what others have had sucess with otherwise you may expend considerable time and money and get nowhere.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    4252

    re Comms

    Serial comms ie RS232 and RS 485 (2wire and 4 Wire) variants are normal comms for machinery.
    In this regard the sooner Mach 3 goes toward something like CanBus the better.
    I agree with a lot of what Steve has written about the changes in hardware and OS design over the years, but I don't think the situation is quite as bad as he paints it.

    The serial interfaces (RS-232C and RS485) are still perfectly functional in the latest hardware and SW creations for long-line industrial interfacing. Yes, you will almost always need to buy 3rd-party serial IO cards because modern PCs don't have serial ports any more, but they are readily available from a range of suppliers, and they usually come with the SW necessary to let you handle industrial stuff. But I would not try to use serial for Mach: it is not really fast enough. (Yes, it could work, but ...) And we can do better.

    CanBus is unlikely to ever be implemented for Mach. No PC is ever shipped with it, and the interfaces are not easily bought by the hobbyist. Even the expected Mach4Pro does not need to use it, because there is a readily available, cheaper and better alternative. That is the highly developed and very reliable ethernet. It is available on every PC and laptop sold these days, for 'free'.

    The ethernet bus has full galvanic isolation at the peripheral, so 99% of the common-mode noise problems simply do not exist. What's more, the ethernet protocol includes the assumption that there will be noise and packets will be lost, and handling that is taken care of deep down in the stack. Your SW does not need to worry about this. And, the ethernet stack has been developed and refined over the years to be very very reliable.

    It used to be that putting an ethernet interface onto a peripheral was a lot of work. Not today! You buy a little shielded ethernet 'socket' and solder it onto your PCB, and guess what? The 'socket' contains a tiny microprocessor running much of the ethernet stack. Most of the hard work is done for you - and debugged.

    I had a USB Smooth Stepper, and had problems on my system with noise, despite all the best efforts I made with screening and earthing. It dropped out once every day. So I replaced it at the beginning of this year with Warp9's Ethernet SS, and the link hasn't dropped out once for the last 6 months.

    I don't think we should worry about any of the older interface systems for CNCs. We have a system which really works. My 2c, anyhow.

    Cheers

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7

    pci express

    Hi , and thanks guys for the info on this issue , this is a weekend job
    when I have time i also have help coming.
    cheers & many thanks.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    Modern emulators can drive the pins as an LPT, but they do not provide the extra functions which the chip had. (Why should they?)
    Emulators? They aren't emulating anything.

    Not wanting to get into a pissing contest over this, but the protocols are either supported or not, they aren't emulated.

    If your pins are driven and/or monitored, they are driven and/or monitored - no element of emulation involved. The modern chips used to provide the same functionality of the original Centronics-developed port are far and away more advanced, faster, with better ECC, better signal level, in fact, better across the board. In the case of parallel ports, older does not equate to better.

    As long as the Chinese factory producing the item is doing their job, that is.

    A stable OS, with a stable hardware subsystem built to support IEEE 1284 will work. It isn't that hard to build an interface to support IEEE 1284 - I could do it with a breadboard of parts from Dick Smith.

    As long as the manufacturer supports ECP/EPP you should be laughing.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7

    pci express

    Hello to all, Had some good luck on the weekend had my brother mkc2 come down to check it out.I think it may of been a combonation of a few things
    we went back to running windows xp, change to a differant pci card that my brother had ,also changed some numbers around.woohoo its alive.
    So hopefully now after nealy 12 months of biulding this HM46 cnc
    i will get to use it.At lease now with the newer computer system ,
    it will not freeze 10 times before i get to mach 3.
    So to all thanks for all your info cheers.
    peter:cheers:

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