[drakke]

Has anybody done any metal stamping or forming?

I am trying to see if this is possible for low volume production for smallish sized parts. I have attached some images of the type of items I want to create (just took these from the Internet).

I looked on alibaba.com and saw a 80-ton press for $8k. Can this be made to fabricate parts with any precision?

Does anybody have experience with hydraulic presses from China?

Thanks.

[txcncman]

As long as material thickness does not vary, metal stamping and forming can be very repeatable. As far as precision, that is something that comes from experience and tweaking the dies.

[drakke]

If I buy a machine from China, do I have a good chance of making it work well enough to make these parts with precision?

Are machines made in China of good quality?

[plasmaplasmapla]

as with anything that is made from china it has a fifty, fifty chance of being well made or not. obviously the higher the cost the more likely it is to be of quality but personally i dont buy any high grade machines from any business outside of ones i know have high quality. Such as a plasma table for example. i bought an american based cnc table from EZCUT and it rules. never have had a problem with it and probably never will. back to the matter of if china makes a good machine. i would just suggest looking into the comapny's back round and reading some reviews the product has received and that should be more then enough to sway your opinion one way or another

[easymike29]

I can't comment on all of the items you want to produce but the rotor/stator and E laminations require a high degree of experience to fabricate the dies. Do you plan on building the dies yourself?

Gene

[drakke]

Yes I plan to make the dies myself.

Those pictures were just a rough example. I don't think I will be making motors/transformers etc. These I can buy off-the-shelf. I am making end-user products (educational toys, kits, robots etc.)

I will probably be making the wheels, robot chassis, mechanisms etc.

[miljnor]

The die is where the precision is, the press is just there to well...press stuff.

If the hydraulic press works then you can make it do precision. The better question for Chinese stuff is whether it is really rated at its actual pressure...IE is 80 tons really 80 tons.....then the question becomes how long will it last.

[Geof]

What facilities do you have to make the dies? Good milling machine, good lathe? Do you have plenty of experience in making intricate accurate parts and (to use the hackneyed expression) thinking outside the box? With ingenuity it is possible to use a very simple hydraulic press, or even a hand operated arbor press to form small shapes in sheet metal. Sometimes the biggest problem is getting steel sheet of the correct grade and thickness without having to buy an enormous quantity.

[drakke]

What facilities do you have to make the dies? Good milling machine, good lathe? Do you have plenty of experience in making intricate accurate parts.

I don't have any machines or experience at the moment. In school I had the impression that metal stamping and other types of manufacturing were only for very large companies with huge capital investments.

Recently I was browsing the Internet and found a lot of smaller machines that were relatively affordable. It seems possible to manufacture more specialized items in low quantities since you don't need a huge market to amortize a multi-million dollar capital investment.

This is a long-range plan. I don't have to build parts next week so I have some time to learn the technology.


Re. Chinese Machinery.

I have bought items off ebay that were made in China and were of dismal quality that I just threw it out. If I were to buy any significant machine I would have to research it so thoroughly that I would be absolutely sure what I receive.

I inquired with a US company about the cost of equipment need to manufacture these parts and they would not even quote me an approximate price. After several emails the closest I got was 'hundreds of thousands of dollars' which leads me to think they are not even interested in very small markets.

You know when Toyota started who supplied many of their parts (nuts and bolts and washers)? Mom and pop shops that manufactured parts in their basement and homes. Now to get into manufacturing you have to be a conglomerate.

[Geof]

......After several emails the closest I got was 'hundreds of thousands of dollars' which leads me to think they are not even interested in very small markets.

You know when Toyota started who supplied many of their parts (nuts and bolts and washers)? Mom and pop shops that manufactured parts in their basement and homes. Now to get into manufacturing you have to be a conglomerate.

You are correct no machinery manufacturer is going to spend time talking to you because they are quite confident you are not a potential customer.

But you are not entirely correct that to get into manufacturing you have to be a conglomerate. Hundreds or thousands of people on CNCzone have got into maniufacturing on a small sacle with very little cash and a lot of ingenuity. You do need to be mechanically inclined and have some experience tinkering with mechanical things and you also need to be good with computers and simple electronics.

[drakke]

You are correct no machinery manufacturer is going to spend time talking to you because they are quite confident you are not a potential customer.

They did not know I was not a customer or not nor how much experience I have nor my budget. I just asked for a the cost of their presses suitable for stamping parts of a certain size. If I had sent an email with a company domain I am sure I would have got a better response. I think my salesperson did not have an engineering background and could not give a quick estimate.

That's ok. I'm sure they have tons of people asking for quotes that they need some way to filter. I'll get travel to China and get my equipment there.

I know a lot of people have manufacturing businesses and I am impressed. If I had know this was possible I would have started years earlier. But when I was in school CNC milling machines were $250k+. In my final year our school got one and it was a very, very big deal. I would have never thought an average person could afford one.

[handlewanker]

Drakke, first of you have to face the problem that you just don't have a clue what is required to use let alone make a press tool of even the simplest design.

Press tools are expensive if the volume is low and the outlay is more than the part is worth both in a press, whatever, and the tooling.

Press and forming tools are made with tool steel etc and get heat treated and ground to size......but that's when you have a design for the tool.....but that's also when you have a part design you want to make, and if the part design is not suitable for press tool production then go find a toolmaker, discuss the parts you want to produce and then get SOMEONE else who understands what presses and press tooing is all about to make the parts for you.

Your trying to fly by gluing feathers to your backside, but that's the easy part....pigs have been known to fly too....LOL.

Seriously, go talk to someome who can advise you as to exacty where you should start.

You'll only get confused by askinjg the wrong questions on here.

BTW, if you intend to mess with presses, better count your fingers before and after you get stuck into one of them......they can bite big time.
Ian.

[drakke]

Drakke, first of you have to face the problem that you just don't have a clue what is required to use let alone make a press tool of even the simplest design.

First Handlewanker, you don't know the first thing about me. You don't know what type of engineer I am, how many degrees or how many grad courses I have taken.

Press tools are expensive because companies have convinced people like you that this is very complicated (ohh big words) and only they can make them and therefore you should pay them to bucket loads of money just to get them.

I am seriously thinking of importing stamping equipment and competing with the established manufacturers. The prices they charge are amazing.

So sell your fear arguments to someone else but not to me. I find you amusing.

[handlewanker]

True Drakke, I don't know a thing about you, and you don't know much either judging by your terminology and lack of press knowledge general and engineering expertise in particular.

I would have to guess that you are a very experienced book learning 20 to 25 year old that sees the opportunities from all that brochure perusing, but that's it.

You also sound like you have more money (or access to some) than brains......whatever...you will no doubt learn the hard way that you only get out of a pot what you put into it......in production engineering you get a lot less out of the pot than you put into it.

When you've made your first tool, assuming you have a job lined up to use it for, will you be punching the buttons to work the press too......you'll be just another press operator with a few fingers less to count on.

Frankly I'm amazed at your curriculum vitae....degrees in metalurgy, tool and die designer, tool maker extrordinaire, heat treat specialist, press setter operator.....when do you sit down for coffee or aren't you the business man you think you'll be with all that work related jobs you'll have to be expert at.

Perhaps I've clocked you up wrong and you're going to buy in all that expertise......as long as you know where to start it shouldn't be too impossible.

Everyone who reads books on how to do it in five easy steps follows this thought trend, then they end up working for someone who knows how to do it.

Welcome to the rat race, it's good to dream.

Impress us with your business plan....you do have one?
Ian.

[gridley51]

First Handlewanker, you don't know the first thing about me. You don't know what type of engineer I am, how many degrees or how many grad courses I have taken.

Press tools are expensive because companies have convinced people like you that this is very complicated (ohh big words) and only they can make them and therefore you should pay them to bucket loads of money just to get them.

I am seriously thinking of importing stamping equipment and competing with the established manufacturers. The prices they charge are amazing.

So sell your fear arguments to someone else but not to me. I find you amusing.

Well,the above statements have saved us all time in finding out what you know.

[juergenwt]

Drakke = listen to what people like Handlewanker have to say - but than again - go ahead and design and make your own tooling having no experience at all. You will do one of two things: Fall flat on your face or come up with a brand new revolutionary way of producing short run tooling for precision parts. Good luck. You will need it in more ways than you now realize. Tool Room Forman with fifty years experience.

[handlewanker]

Drakke, I second Juergen's statement.......don't be put off by someone else's opinion, grasp the nettle and have a go, you will learn a valuable lesson by experience.

You can learn the hard way or use somone else's accumulated knowledge (buy in the expertise) which is a normal practice.

The old style of toolmaking has undergone a complete change from the days when I was active in the workplace........dies are now wire cut and spark eroded etc amongst other processes......and 3d printing is just another way to get there.

Ultimately you will learn that just throwing money at a problem does not always solve it, but it does help to have money available and cash flow problems have always caused headaches for would be business entrepreneurs.
Ian.

[drakke]

Well,the above statements have saved us all time in finding out what you know.

You missed the point I was trying to make. You don't know anything about a person from a forum post (or a hundred forum posts).

When you were in school didn't you notice that the people asking all the stupid questions were the A+ students?

I'm sure you are saying you don't need to be a bookworm to become an expert but I will disagree with you.

[drakke]

Drakke = listen to what people like Handlewanker have to say - but than again - go ahead and design and make your own tooling having no experience at all. You will do one of two things: Fall flat on your face or come up with a brand new revolutionary way of producing short run tooling for precision parts. Good luck. You will need it in more ways than you now realize. Tool Room Forman with fifty years experience.

I used to think like you several years ago. I needed lots and lots of work experience before I can do anything.

Then I got into the work force and found out what I actually needed was lots of knowledge and that knowledge can't always be found in the workforce.

Because most working people have not kept up with the advances in their profession and incorporated what they have learned into their work.

That's the problem with experience - you learn how to do something one way and never consider anything else from that point forward.

[drakke]

You can learn the hard way or use somone else's accumulated knowledge (buy in the expertise) which is a normal practice.

Sorry if I got testy. The tone of that post hit me the wrong way.