[mrquacker]

Yup sounds like a money pit, but is it really worth it....

Call up a sales rep and ask them to run you a sample part. They should be able to give you the data on it.

Alternatively, do it yourself in sprutcam. Adjust the feedrate modifiers in the postprocessor to those of another VMC and see by how much the estimated run times differ.

[riabma]

Okay, getting conclusions, I stupid example:

You can deliver pizza with a car and with a bicycle. Of course a bicycle is must cheaper than a car, but... How many pizzas you can deliver with each? How many tips?

I think the Tormach is a great machine but can't be compared with a VMC (even a MiniMill). Time is money and money is time.

For my product probably the best way to go is with the MM2 and keeping the Tormach like a 2nd machine if I can't sell it... Something is true: The Tormach will be almost all the time doing nothing. This is the reason I was expecting to get some money and use it for software, tooling, etc...

So, after thinking with the pillow, a 2nd Tormach is out of the picture.

Meanwhile I can work increasing the productivity of the Tormach. I just bought a package of SW and SolidCam. I can't wait to see iMachining in the Tormach. I will post my comments.


TXFred,

I really appreciate your offer. I will keep it in mind if I decide to go with it.


Pete from TN,

80% of the the time, the machine is drilling, so I am open also to a Drill/Tap Center. The DT1 is smoky fast but is out of my budget. I do not know if in a small enclosure you can notice the difference of rapids.


twocik,

I have the same finish issues with the Tormach and I have not found a solution yet. Before to buy the Tormach a local machine shop was making my parts (with MiniMills) and the finish was much better...


Thanks!

Ricardo

[philbur]

Aaah but there are two variables in that equation, the machine is one, but have you considered the operator......Some phrase about blaming his tools?

Phil

I have the same finish issues with the Tormach and I have not found a solution yet. Before to buy the Tormach a local machine shop was making my parts (with MiniMills) and the finish was much better...

[rowbare]

You might consider looking for a used RoboDrill.

Before you spend big money though, what have you done to optimize your drilling operations? Are you using regular jobber drills? Your 1d pecks are insane. With the right drill and techniques you should be able to do that 30mm depth in a single pass. Have you tried parabolic drills bits (preferably in carbide)? Look at some of the Titex videos on YouTube and see what can be done. At least one of the videos uses an interesting drilling strategy where the drill is fed in slowly at a low spindle speed until it gets to full engagement then the spindle speeds up and the feed increases.

Running bad code on a fast machine doesn't buy you a heck of a lot apart from debt. There are a lot of things you can do that are a lot cheaper than a new machine. You might bristle at spending $30 on a drill bit, but if it can do your holes in a single pass, you are way ahead of the game.

bob

[riabma]

You might consider looking for a used RoboDrill.

Before you spend big money though, what have you done to optimize your drilling operations? Are you using regular jobber drills? Your 1d pecks are insane. With the right drill and techniques you should be able to do that 30mm depth in a single pass. Have you tried parabolic drills bits (preferably in carbide)? Look at some of the Titex videos on YouTube and see what can be done. At least one of the videos uses an interesting drilling strategy where the drill is fed in slowly at a low spindle speed until it gets to full engagement then the spindle speeds up and the feed increases.

Running bad code on a fast machine doesn't buy you a heck of a lot apart from debt. There are a lot of things you can do that are a lot cheaper than a new machine. You might bristle at spending $30 on a drill bit, but if it can do your holes in a single pass, you are way ahead of the game.

bob

Bob,

The drill bit I am using is carbide with slow spiral. I do not think is possible to drill in a single pass in plastic (15d). With the heat generated you will melt the plastic...

I saw one video of Titex and is impressive! Of course, you need TSC...

Ricardo

[Steve Seebold]

1. Haas rapids at 600 IPM, Tormach 90 IPM. Significant difference if you're moving long distances, otherwise, not so much.

2. Haas 6,000 RPM, Tormach 5140. 860 RPM difference. Whoopee.

3. Haas, rigid tap $1,295 option. Tormach T/C tap holder under $400.00 with all tap holders. Requires a little more programming time.

4. Haas, $37,995 base price, coolant pump, $595.00, p/cool $1,895.00, rigid tap, $1,395, total so far $41,280. Tormach nicely tooled, under $20,000.

I spent $14,553.00 on my machine last July (1 year ago today). I got a PCNC 1100 Series II, delux stand, controller, monitor, jog wheel, 2 machine arms, PDB, automatic oiler, 4 each 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 and 1/2 inch set screw holders plus 6 each ER 16 and ER 20 collet holders.

That's $27,247.00 difference. I could have had ANOTHER identical Tormach and still had $12,714.00 left over.

Don't get me wrong, Haas is a nice machine, but it's not $25,600.00 nicer. It's faster, but it's not $25,600.00 faster. With the enclosure, it's cleaner, but for $25,600.00 you can buy a LOT of brooms, and if you're a real clean freak, you can mop the floor while the machine runs.

[TurboStep]

twocik, riabma
Does your finish look anything like that in the attached image? The black marks at the top are the scale from a millimeter ruler. The red lines indicate the peaks of the waves, which appear at regular intervals corresponding to about 2.5 waves per millimeter. The wave effect was much easier to see with the naked eye, as it was to photograph. I get this effect with everything I machine at over 4000 RPM regardless of tool or tool holder.
Step

[riabma]

1. Haas rapids at 600 IPM, Tormach 90 IPM. Significant difference if you're moving long distances, otherwise, not so much.

2. Haas 6,000 RPM, Tormach 5140. 860 RPM difference. Whoopee.

3. Haas, rigid tap $1,295 option. Tormach T/C tap holder under $400.00 with all tap holders. Requires a little more programming time.

4. Haas, $37,995 base price, coolant pump, $595.00, p/cool $1,895.00, rigid tap, $1,395, total so far $41,280. Tormach nicely tooled, under $20,000.

I spent $14,553.00 on my machine last July (1 year ago today). I got a PCNC 1100 Series II, delux stand, controller, monitor, jog wheel, 2 machine arms, PDB, automatic oiler, 4 each 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 and 1/2 inch set screw holders plus 6 each ER 16 and ER 20 collet holders.

That's $27,247.00 difference. I could have had ANOTHER identical Tormach and still had $12,714.00 left over.

Don't get me wrong, Haas is a nice machine, but it's not $25,600.00 nicer. It's faster, but it's not $25,600.00 faster. With the enclosure, it's cleaner, but for $25,600.00 you can buy a LOT of brooms, and if you're a real clean freak, you can mop the floor while the machine runs.

Let me ask you something Steve,

You have 2 machine shops: The first one has 2 VF1 (for example) and the second one has 2 Tormachs. Then, your customers is visiting both shops and you offer to him the same part (supposing the Tormach can do exactly the same than the VF1), and the same price of course. But, In the Tormach shop you need about a 50% more of time. What do you think the customer is going to do? He is going to tell you: "Keep buying brooms".

Again, Tormach is a great machine, but you need to compare apples with apples. Like in my case, I see the Tormach a great choice for introduction in machining, or like a complementary machine. I think this is the Tormach Philosophy.
:cheers:
Ricardo

[Steve Seebold]

Let me ask you something Steve,

You have 2 machine shops: The first one has 2 VF1 (for example) and the second one has 2 Tormachs. Then, your customers is visiting both shops and you offer to him the same part (supposing the Tormach can do exactly the same than the VF1), and the same price of course. But, In the Tormach shop you need about a 50% more of time. What do you think the customer is going to do? He is going to tell you: "Keep buying brooms".

Again, Tormach is a great machine, but you need to compare apples with apples. Like in my case, I see the Tormach a great choice for introduction in machining, or like a complementary machine. I think this is the Tormach Philosophy.
:cheers:
Ricardo

What difference should it make to your customer if you make his parts on a Mazak or a drill press as long as you get him good parts, on time and for the price you agreed on.

Just using numbers here: If you get 5 parts per day on the Tormach, and 6 on a Haas, how long is it going to take for you to make up for the extra $30,000.00 you spent on the Haas.

Just because the Haas will rapid faster doesn't mean you're going to make vast improvements in your production. You need to remember, 20 IPM is still 20 IPM no matter what machine you're running.

If you amortize your investment over a 4 year period, 40 hours per week, that's 8320 hours. Your $42,000.00 investment in a Haas will cost you about $9.00 per hour when you include the interest on your loan. The hourly rate for the same period on a Tormach is about $3.00 per hour.

I said earlier, buy another Tormach, run the heck out of it for 2 years, then if your work load dictates it, buy the Haas. They're a great machine.

Would I trade my Tormach for a Haas? In a heart beat. Would I spend the extra money to buy a Haas to get my business started? No way.

[jid2]

What CAM software is generating the code with poor surface finish? Perhaps it's in there.

[TurboStep]

jid2
Alibre/Sprut or Notepad/G-code the finish is the same. Curves or straight lines. Movement parallel to the X-axis is worse than parallel to the Y-axis. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
Step

[mike sr1]

twocik, riabma
Does your finish look anything like that in the attached image? The black marks at the top are the scale from a millimeter ruler. The red lines indicate the peaks of the waves, which appear at regular intervals corresponding to about 2.5 waves per millimeter. The wave effect was much easier to see with the naked eye, as it was to photograph. I get this effect with everything I machine at over 4000 RPM regardless of tool or tool holder.
Step

It could be your spindle belt, mine has a vibration above 4000, its due to the belt, a higher quality belt may eliminate that. Maybe the gibs need to be tightened up some on the x axis, it possibly could be due to the cutter itself.

My finishes look really good, but my finish passes are about 10 ipm and 4000 rpm, just below the vibration rpm.

There was a recent post on the vibration problem and one of the guys suggested a Fenner belt, one made up of individual links as the balance was better.

[btu44]

A sources of vibation on my Series I machine is an out of balance motor pulley.
One day I removed the belt and started the spindle motor at max RPM's. This vibrated the spindle head pretty good. A dial indicator touching the spindle showed about .002" of needle giggle. Next I removed the pulley and key from the motor and retested. As I was hoping, the vibation was undetectable.
I even tried a Harbor Frieght motorcycle wheel balancer to balance the pulley myself. Unfortunately the balancers bearings had too much friction and I could not get reliable readings. So now I just do my finish cuts below the vibration RPM as others have suggested.

[mike sr1]

A sources of vibation on my Series I machine is an out of balance motor pulley.
One day I removed the belt and started the spindle motor at max RPM's. This vibrated the spindle head pretty good. A dial indicator touching the spindle showed about .002" of needle giggle. Next I removed the pulley and key from the motor and retested. As I was hoping, the vibation was undetectable.
I even tried a Harbor Frieght motorcycle wheel balancer to balance the pulley myself. Unfortunately the balancers bearings had too much friction and I could not get reliable readings. So now I just do my finish cuts below the vibration RPM as others have suggested.

I checked mine again and the motor pulley or rotor are out some but the belt I believe is the big problem, I tried repositioning the belt on the spindle pulley an inch or so at a time, at certain points this helped but didnt eliminate it altogether.
It seems to be worse when the motor is locked down, leaving the lockdown loose made quite a difference, now to figure out a way to hold the motor position/belt tension another way???

[pete from TN]

What difference should it make to your customer if you make his parts on a Mazak or a drill press as long as you get him good parts, on time and for the price you agreed on.

Just using numbers here: If you get 5 parts per day on the Tormach, and 6 on a Haas, how long is it going to take for you to make up for the extra $30,000.00 you spent on the Haas.





With all those drilled holes alone it would probably be more like four parts on the Tormach and thirty on the Haas.....let alone the fact that the machine can run unattended as he stated.





Just because the Haas will rapid faster doesn't mean you're going to make vast improvements in your production. You need to remember, 20 IPM is still 20 IPM no matter what machine you're running.





It is only twenty inches per minute in actual cutting, rapiding from hole to hole there is a VAST difference the larger the part the more the difference of course....


If you amortize your investment over a 4 year period, 40 hours per week, that's 8320 hours. Your $42,000.00 investment in a Haas will cost you about $9.00 per hour when you include the interest on your loan. The hourly rate for the same period on a Tormach is about $3.00 per hour.

I said earlier, buy another Tormach, run the heck out of it for 2 years, then if your work load dictates it, buy the Haas. They're a great machine.

Would I trade my Tormach for a Haas? In a heart beat. Would I spend the extra money to buy a Haas to get my business started? No way.

You also mentioned that the rigid tap is an option you need to buy and compared it to the tension compression head. Having owned the tension and compression head and used it on a machine with faster rapids than the tormach I can tell you there is no comparison to a true rigid tap on a VMC in speed or reliability. I had issues occasionally with the head and if you are not real careful ( and even sometimes if you are) the spring back of the setup can cause the collet to inadvertently release from the holder breaking the tap and possibly damaging the holder.

Please understand my comments here are not attacking Tormach at all. I honestly think it is a great little mill and Tormach has priced it in a strategic position to make it viable alternative to a VMC for some situations. It is a GREAT prototype mill, it is great for a hobbyist, it would also be great for a gunsmith and can even be used in very light production of parts. The moment you step into any real production let alone this poster's need for many many precisely drilled holes the Tormach will lose very quickly assuming there is enough money in the product to justify the cost of the better machine. From the sounds of it for him the MINI mill is probably NOT the best choice as a used Brother drill and tap or a Robodrill would quickly pay dividends and in those machines the difference in performance and speed between those and the tormach is just unbelievable. There simply is no comparison....

I surely wish there was something that really was in between a real commercial machine and the tormach machine and it's competitors but so far that is just not the case. I guess it is because it is difficult to give up all that mass and weight to allow the machine to be priced inexpensively and the higher quality ballscrews and components gotta be paid for too. It would seem that if someone could make a machine that truly breached this gap it would be a big seller as there seems to be a lot of folks who are trying to start businesses and do not have many thousands of dollars to invest in machinery or do not need the big commercial machines. Until then one needs to carefully decide just what machine is right for them. For many a Tormach is a fine choice, for some it is just not enough machine.... peace

Pete

[btu44]

I checked mine again and the motor pulley or rotor are out some but the belt I believe is the big problem, I tried repositioning the belt on the spindle pulley an inch or so at a time, at certain points this helped but didnt eliminate it altogether.
It seems to be worse when the motor is locked down, leaving the lockdown loose made quite a difference, now to figure out a way to hold the motor position/belt tension another way???

I noticed when hand turning my spindle, it would get a little bit harder when the belts 'connection seam' was just riding on to the pulley.
The belt was a little fatter at the seam and making the belt squeeze out of the pulley.
Some sanding at the seam of the belt helped some with vibration.
Maybe it will help?

[twocik]

riabma yes, this is exactly what I'm seeing. I started a thread on this awhile back trying to achieve the best finish with a bunch of different test. What seems to have worked best for me was to sprial 1/2" rough and finish with a 1/2" 2FL ZRN coated carbide bit (didn't really see any difference in using more flutes and very little using higher helix)
Finish pass at

RPM - 2500
WOC - 0.02"
DOC - full
IPM - 25






Of course after a few hours in my tumbler(s)/sanding the parts will come out smooth and almost perfect looking, however going straight to polish would be much better, etc... Here's what the part looks like after finishing





I've tried everything and is what's had me thinking Haas. Now the pulley and shaft test I haven't check yet, please explain what you mean by leaving the lever unlocked and if this could cause something to malfunction ?



BTU - have any pics to show on aluminum ? I would really love to reduce the marks !

.

[mike sr1]

I've tried everything and is what's had me thinking Haas. Now the pulley and shaft test I haven't check yet, please explain what you mean by leaving the lever unlocked and if this could cause something to malfunction ?




.[/QUOTE]

I posted about leaving the locking lever in the unlocked (loose) position just for a test, without it being locked (tight) the belt wont stay tight, but the vibration quiets down.
I am going to try one of the fenner belts first as I really think that will solve most of the problem.
Nitewatchman posted on this awhile back, they are available on ebay.

[TurboStep]

I also once suspected the belt. Strangely, mine had 2 splices. One was flexible but the other appeared to be stiff. I then read the post about the Fenner belts (thanks Mike) and ordered one immediately. The finish remained the same but the sound was a little better to my ears so I left it on the machine.
As btu44 mentioned the motor appears to be well balanced, which is good to hear. I would also hope that the spindle is also sufficiently balanced, at least for speeds up to 5000RPM. That leaves us with the pulleys.
As btu44 also mentioned the motor pulley could be better and I suspect that the spindle pulley is about the same. I measured the thickness of my spindle pulley about 10mm away from the edge and found a deviation of about 0.15mm around the circumference. My pulley also has a dent in the V groove for the high speed section. This may just be a bad example.
The puzzle doesn’t fit together yet. In my earlier post with the photo I said that the “wavy” finish repeated at about 2.5 lines per mm. At a feed rate of 300mm/min this would correspond to about 750 lines per minute. This is a long way from 4000 RPM!
I took some measurements of the rotational speeds using a Tormach Tacho:

Mach3 speed setting = 3620 RPM
Spindle speed = 4003 RPM (about 10% faster than indicated by Mach3)
Motor speed = 3258 RPM
Belt speed = 2088 RPM (just for interest)

If two frequencies are superimposed they generate a beat frequency equal to the difference of the two frequencies. Take the spindle and pulley speeds:
4003-3258 = 745 RPM
My theory is that I (we) are seeing an oscillation at the difference of the rotational speeds.

If you think you are seeing this effect, estimate the number of waves per unit (e.g. 65 per inch) and multiply this value with the feed rate (e.g. 12 in/min). Multiply this result by 5.4. If my theory is correct then this result should be very close to your spindle speed (preferably measured with a tacho).
Step

[mike sr1]

I also once suspected the belt. Strangely, mine had 2 splices. One was flexible but the other appeared to be stiff. I then read the post about the Fenner belts (thanks Mike) and ordered one immediately. The finish remained the same but the sound was a little better to my ears so I left it on the machine.
As btu44 mentioned the motor appears to be well balanced, which is good to hear. I would also hope that the spindle is also sufficiently balanced, at least for speeds up to 5000RPM. That leaves us with the pulleys.
As btu44 also mentioned the motor pulley could be better and I suspect that the spindle pulley is about the same. I measured the thickness of my spindle pulley about 10mm away from the edge and found a deviation of about 0.15mm around the circumference. My pulley also has a dent in the V groove for the high speed section. This may just be a bad example.
The puzzle doesn’t fit together yet. In my earlier post with the photo I said that the “wavy” finish repeated at about 2.5 lines per mm. At a feed rate of 300mm/min this would correspond to about 750 lines per minute. This is a long way from 4000 RPM!
I took some measurements of the rotational speeds using a Tormach Tacho:

Mach3 speed setting = 3620 RPM
Spindle speed = 4003 RPM (about 10% faster than indicated by Mach3)
Motor speed = 3258 RPM
Belt speed = 2088 RPM (just for interest)

If two frequencies are superimposed they generate a beat frequency equal to the difference of the two frequencies. Take the spindle and pulley speeds:
4003-3258 = 745 RPM
My theory is that I (we) are seeing an oscillation at the difference of the rotational speeds.

If you think you are seeing this effect, estimate the number of waves per unit (e.g. 65 per inch) and multiply this value with the feed rate (e.g. 12 in/min). Multiply this result by 5.4. If my theory is correct then this result should be very close to your spindle speed (preferably measured with a tacho).
Step

I also ordered a fenner belt last evening, the noise is objectionable to me, if this will quiet it down thats a big plus here....

Speed is fine for the general machining but for finish I try to go with a higher speed on the cutter, not in the vibration range though, very light depth of cut, and much slower feed rate, this makes the cutter marks closer together and less noticeable, this works for me.


I was also thinking about the motor, the rotor is probably balanced for the specified speed (1800 - 3600), when the vfd is added to the mix then the rotor may be out of balance at the higher/lower speeds that are capable with the vfd.

I am also thinking about a piece of very thin gasket material between the motor lockdown plate and the head of the machine to break up the vibration transmitted by having a rigid mounting when the lockdown lever is tight.