[TDavid]

Along with other posters in this forum, we, too, are having issues with our Fadal with 104/D.

However, we are relatively new to machining, and have only been running the machine about 8 hrs, 4-5 days per week, for the last 4 months.

Not having ever owned a CNC mill before, I am not sure what kind of issues are considered "normal", and what should be deemed excessive and unacceptable.

We did find that a lot of our issues, such random control freeze-ups or Internal Errors, went away when we went to a dedicated off line CAM suite and stopped switching to the preloaded Gibbs software.

However, there have been issues since then in the last 3 months:

1. Dropped tool
2. Machine would randomly stop during machining, resulting in a broken end mill - Complete Control replaced.
3. 3 dropped tools. - Software updated
4. Software glitch, won't change tools. Extra tool change call inserted in programs.
5. Machine stops again during machining. Software updated (tool change glitch fixed)
6. Startup error - "CAN init failed"
7. 4 dropped tools (tool broken)
8. 1 dropped tool - ATC adjusted
9. 1 dropped tool - first tool change after adjustment (and after technician has left!)

As of now, we have lost a couple end mills, but some of our flycutters have also been dropped, which could have a much more expensive consequence for us if that continues.

The dropped tools have also resulted in nicked and ultimately scrapped parts, as well as some marking of the table.

Given our lack of history using CNC machines, I am not sure if "some" issues like this are to be expected with a machine like this, or if *any* of these problems should considered unacceptable.

Remember, we are not a job shop, and these issues have occurred with fairly limited use compared to a multishift job shop.

I am under the impression that the machine is built to a different spec when equipped with a 104/D control, so swapping in a Fanuc or other make control is not possible.

If that means a complete machine change out, I am not sure if we should just "suck it up" or bite the bullet and go for extreme measures like a change out.

I am also concerned about being stuck with "abnormal" issues after our warranty runs out.

So basically, for you experienced machine and business owners out there:

What would you do?

Thanks in advance for helping the noobie!

Dave

[Eddieweeks]

I bought this machine 7 months ago.. Have not had one problem.. Made thousands of parts some steel most aluminum.. All my tools I got on ebay. Machine was > 40k
its a Reman 3016.. very happy with it.

[gar]

060106-2045 EST USA

TDavid:

What you have experienced is totally unacceptable and should not be expected.

,

[Geof]

I second GAR's comment; none of what you describe is to be expected or acceptable.

Your litany of woes is longer than my total accumulated teething problems getting thireteen machines into operation over a six year period. And the problems I did have were fixed and did not recur. What you are experiencing cannot be considered normal.

Regarding your question: "what would you do?" I can't answer that politely.

There is a fundamental principle in common law that an object offered for sale has to be suitable for the purpose it was intended for. I don't think your machine meets this criterion. I think you need to get very firm; you want the machine fixed and you want warranties on the fixes that extend from the date of fix for a full new machine warranty period or they take the machine back and refund your full purchase price.

[Scott_bob]

TDavid,

The difference between your 104D control machine and Fadals older more reliable controls is just that, the older ones are more reliable. Personally, if I were you I would send the CNC back for as much of a refund as you can get, and then get another brand CNC. On the subject of replacing the control with another one, you can have that done, just not by Fadal Engineering. A lot of us here can sympathize with your troubles, and I salute your stick-to-itiveness. My personal opinion is that the reason Fadal has not yet fixed their issues is because there is a fundamental flaw in the 104D system design. If that flaw is indeed foundational, then a band aid fix cannot save this automation tool. Sooner or later, when you bash your knuckles because of poorly designed tool, it's going to get thrown away. Save yourself the prolonged headache.

Good Luck,

[HuFlungDung]

Yikes,
That is a sad story!

I'd sure be angry if my machine dropped a tool even once. That's like tossing a rock on the hood of your Mercedes

[TDavid]

Thanks for all the responses, guys.

They are what I was hoping for, and also dreading (since that means I have the difficult task ahead of us of returning a machine).

Has anyone here ever gone through the process of demanding a machine of this size and cost be swapped out? Obviously all associated rigging costs are on them, but do I demand compensation for the production time lost already and during the swap out? Is that realistic to expect?

What is the history of the 32mp controller?

Does it have USB ports?

Our machining history is limited to what we have learned in house (operators have no previous control experience), so how similar will the interface be to the 104/D?

Besides (hopefully) losing all the problems associated with the 104/D, is there any functionality that we lose going to the 32mp?

Thanks again, guys, for giving me a way to put this experience into perspective.

David

[Scott_bob]

I assume your CNC is still under warrantee.
Is your machine a dual arm tool changer style, or what is called a carrousel or umbrella style?
I cannot speak for Fadal Engineering, but so far from what I have heard, they have been willing to just take back any 104D control CNC and replace it with a new CNC with the MP32. Your programs will work on the older control with minimal edits, there are a few changes. Your machinists will adapt quickly as the interface is very similar.
I would be surprised if you could negotiate for compensation for lost time so far as you may have benefited from use to date. Who knows, a lot can be accomplished by contacting a lawyer and let them do the legal thing. My only concern on this subject is that if you're going to get another Fadal product, you may jeopardize a reasonable business relationship. On the other hand, if you're not going to trust Fadal and use their products, then you should go for all the legal compensation you deserve...

Good luck,

[Fred Stevens]

Thanks for all the responses, guys.

<snip>

What is the history of the 32mp controller?

Does it have USB ports?

Our machining history is limited to what we have learned in house (operators have no previous control experience), so how similar will the interface be to the 104/D?

Besides (hopefully) losing all the problems associated with the 104/D, is there any functionality that we lose going to the 32mp?

Thanks again, guys, for giving me a way to put this experience into perspective.

David

Well, maybe I can answer a couple of your questions, Dave. As far as I know, the 32mp controller has been around since about 1988 or so. It consists of Fadal's standard controller, usually known as the 88hs. The 32mp adds a PC with windows operating system, hard drive, 2 floppies and an internal high speed serial port connection (I think this is called a 422 serial, but I'm a little hazy on this). You can also update the 32mp controller's floppies with a cd-r and maybe a cd-rw drive, they are (I believe) standard pc type drive bays. CHECK WITH YOUR DEALER!

The biggest advantage to the 32mp controller is that you get the standard controller and a pc with Gibbs cad/cam software all rolled into one. Last price I heard was about $6,500.00 more than just the standard 88hs controller.

As I recall from using the Fadal 6030 where I used to work, you can be running a program, either internal or drip feed with the 32mp controller and, at the same time, write or work on another program on the pc side, either in Gibbs or with a text editor. No usb option that I know of, but there's probably a way of doing it somehow.

The following is a list right from Fadal's website for options available for 4020 machines.

Control Options
32MP Control Win95 Platform with Visualizer Software
Color Monitor
Remote Manual pulse Generator Hand Held Assembly w/Tool In/Out
Tool Load Compensation
Front Mount Disk Drive On CNC MP (3.5" 1.44 Meg)
Phone Modem Ready (Does not include modem)
Zip Drive for CNC MP
Zip Drive for 32MP
CD Drive for 32MP
166K RAM Memory on CNC
422K RAM Memory on CNC
4 Meg RAM Memory on CNC
8 Meg RAM Memory on CNC
16 Meg RAM Memory on CNC
M-Function Interface (Card Only)
Advanced Feed Forward Software
Fadal Assist Software (DNC Capable, Program up/down load
Software for 1000 BLKS Per Second
RS-232 Cable 100 ft.
RS-232 Noise Immune Cable 25 ft. db-25
RS-232 Noise Immune Cable 100 ft. db-25
RS-232 Noise Immune Cable 150 ft. db-25
RS-232 Noise Immune Cable 200 ft. db-25
RS-232 Surge Suppressor For RS-232
Null Modem Cable for RS-232 Multigender

Hope there's something here you can use, don't be afraid to ask me or others more questions.
Fred

[TDavid]

Thanks, Fred.

So if the 32mp is PC Windows based, what was the big deal with the 104/D? From what I recall from the sales pitches I was getting from the Fadal guy, the Windows based platform of the 104/D was what was so radical compared to the only other control they offered (Fanuc I think it was), and compared to the Haas machines we were considering.

We found quickly that we could not use both the Windows side and control side at the same time, and then we found that the machine would error out frequently after switching back and forth, prompting a stand alone $7000 CAM purchase...

So the 32mp has been around since 88 and is available with the 3016? Our machine is also boxway with servo tool changer, but nothing out of the ordinary. I am wondering why the 104/D was being presented to us as revolutionary when the 32mp has been around so long...

What was nice about the 104/D was that it came with so many of the above options as standard, like GibbsCAM, M Functions, 4MB of RAM, and an ethernet card (even though I never got around to hooking up the machine to our network, and have been using the USB ports to download all our programs to the machine).

Hmm.

Dave

[TDavid]

I assume your CNC is still under warrantee.

Oh yes! And a distributor tech is on site at our facility almost every week fixing something under warranty!

Is your machine a dual arm tool changer style, or what is called a carrousel or umbrella style?

Umbrella with servo mechanism.

I cannot speak for Fadal Engineering, but so far from what I have heard, they have been willing to just take back any 104D control CNC and replace it with a new CNC with the MP32. Your programs will work on the older control with minimal edits, there are a few changes. Your machinists will adapt quickly as the interface is very similar.

Very good to know. If the 32mp has been around since '88, I'm sure our CAM system can post to it.

I would be surprised if you could negotiate for compensation for lost time so far as you may have benefited from use to date.

I was actually referring to the lost time as they "swap it out", which should be at least a full day, if not more.

Who knows, a lot can be accomplished by contacting a lawyer and let them do the legal thing. My only concern on this subject is that if you're going to get another Fadal product, you may jeopardize a reasonable business relationship. On the other hand, if you're not going to trust Fadal and use their products, then you should go for all the legal compensation you deserve...

Good luck,

Yes, that is something I have been weighing during this whole nightmare. I did not know how hard of a line I should be taking in case I was putting my future relationship with the Fadal distributor in jeopardy, but after this experience I am not sure if I would do Fadal again. Nor do they have other machines besides milling centers, which is what we would be looking at next.

Either way, I'll keep you guys posted on what happens. Maybe we can standardize the procedure as a forum FAQ for people so they know exactly what to do if they are stuck with a 104/D and want to get out as painlessly as possible.

Dave

[DareBee]

Dave

If you are happy with the CAM software you are using, a 32MP control is a waste of money due to the fact that you already have a PC and CAM. As mentioned above the MP is an 88HS control with a piggybacked PC. Maybe you could upgrade to the Siemans or Fanuc control or maybe get the 88HS control and some accesories (4th axis?). My Fadal is old I have no experience to share with the new controls.

[TR MFG]

IMHO The MP32 is a waste of money. Your getting an outdated PC and very basic cam package for $6k. As for the 104D it was so bad it is now not even offered by Fadal.

[ty1295]

Future order propositions, and PO's always seem to help with good service. Even if Upper management axes them after the repairs that should have been done anyways are complete.

In fact just this morning I talked with a machine builder we use. I have a PO for 2 new machines on my desk. I told him he would not be getting the PO until he sent someone down at no charge to fix a machine they recently rebuilt for us.

Salemen seem to only react at new money possibilities. Sometimes you just gotta hold that carrot in front of them, play the game even if the carrot disapears later.

If you can't pretend to have a future order, then you can always have a friend's shop that does providing you give them good feedback, etc.

Sometimes I have also called up the ladder. It is fun when you call the main office saying how the local distributor is not servicing/repairing your machine to watch them jump around.

[TDavid]

Yes, perhaps this is our chance to change a spec to better suit our current situation.

Why would you consider the Fanuc or Siemens a superior control to the 32mp?

I am wondering about resale, too. Which is more valuable as a resale consideration: 32mp or the Fanuc or Siemens?

[Scott_bob]

TDavid,

1) I wonder what kind of deal you could negotiate with Fadal Engineering if you agreed to keep your CNC.

2) You have that boat anchor 104D retrofitted with a PC based control that does work, then go away quitely... Sounds like you'd be happy to no longer deal with Fadal... Like you said they don't offer a lathe you may need...

What part of the country are you located in?

[TDavid]

We're in PA.

I might be painting myself into a corner taking a big discount on a machine with a known issue. Afterall, I am not nor do I have the time to become a CNC repair expert.

I think I'd rather just wash my hands of the whole machine, or at least eliminate the 104/D aspects, rather than implicitly accept to live with the defects in exchange for some big discount.

I've set a trigger of another control failure as the time I come to the table with my local distributor about my options. The machine was running all day Friday and today with no issues (I've been reduced to being thankful for these small miracles) but I am sure it will crap out again sometime in the near future...

I'll keep y'all posted.

David

[fourperf]

I purchased a reman trm from Fadal which I had troubles with. They were intermittant. The machine would run fine and the spindle would just shut off with no reason. It also had some Z runaway issues. After a tech came out a few times and tried a few things to no avail I called fadal who without hesitation said that would replace my machine at no cost with a new one. The person to speak to at Fadal is Jerry McCarty (818) 407 1400. This is the second machine I have bought from Fadal and they have really stood behind their product in my case.

Mark Dektor

[TDavid]

Well, it has been a month an a half since my last post on this issue, and there may be light at the end of the tunnel, just depends on how you look at it.

The machine still drops between 1-2 tools per day, resulting in more broken tools and work pieces, and now has begun sometimes spinning the spindle excessively right after picking up a new tool, like it is having trouble orienting itself.

A month and a half ago, I called our local distributor and told them that enough was enough, and the machine had to go. After no call back for a few days, suddenly a tech showed up to fix the issue (again). I told him that this was the very last chance they had to fix this tool drop problem, and after another whole day of the machine being down, he proclaimed the problem fixed. All he ended up doing was increasing a delay step to 2ms from 1ms, but after completing several hundred dry tool changes, there were no more dropped tools.

However, a few days later, the problem came back. I then called the distributor, and told them that they were out of chances to fix the machine, and we needed to start the change out process. Unbelievably, they sent the tech out again in a last ditch effort to fix the machine, and he had it torn apart again before I arrived at the office. I told him to immediately reassemble the machine, and in no uncertain terms to not come back for this issue, no matter what his boss told him. Another loss of machining time...

Since then, I have had to get our attorneys involved, as no one from the distributor would call me back. Jerry McCarty from Fadal said that the most I could get would be a reman replacement 3016 with a Legacy control, which would have been totally unacceptable, given what we paid for. We have continued the battle with our distributor, since our money went to them, and now the offer is for a new 3016 with a Fanuc 18i-MB5 control.

I am having trouble finding any extensive information on this control. gefanuc.com has very sparse info, and our distributor says that they will mail us a brochure which means several weeks probably until they finally do.

Can anyone give me an general overview comparing the 104/D to the 18i? What would I be gaining/losing (besides reliability!)? We already have an offline CAM suite, so not having Gibbs 2.0 built into the control is not a real sticking point.

David