[memoryman]

8 years ago we demonstrated a plug compatible Fanuc-6 control retrofit at the 2004 IMTS. It never became a product for personal reasons
After visiting this year's show, and talking with many people, I am seriously looking at reviving that project and/or tackling other controls.
The control would have a Windows HMI, requires no wiring changes, install in 1-2 days. No motors /drives affected.
My questions:
1: Who would be interested in this as a customer?
2: What features would you like to see?
3: Which control brand and model would your priority?
4: What would you be willing to pay for installed this?
5: Who, located in the greater Los Angeles area, may be interested in being a test site, at minimal cost?
Any other feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Bill

[Al_The_Man]

Bill, Although the effort would be commendable, in my experience over the years whenever servicing models such as the Fanuc-6, which BTW is now getting long in the tooth, the majority of problems were usually outboard of the Controller, especially DC servo's and DC spindle motors, often due to lack of preventative maintenance, 'If the machine is running, don't touch it syndrome.
The other weak areas were the 5v/24vdc power supply not to mention the lack of a decent PMC/PLC to replace the often hardwired M/T code logic.
I am just wondering if present owners considering a HMI such as this will tend to think it it is going to solve alot of the machine issues they may have with a machine of this vintage?
Just playing the devils advocate.
Al.

[barchdesigns]

I certainly would be interested in this project. I have a Fanuc 6M machine from the early 1980's and have been thinking over the last few years that it's just a matter of WHEN I have to replace it all.

Bill, Is it possible to see the retrofit you did somewhere on the web?

Benjamin

[memoryman]

Thanks for responding, Al.
First, the new control would display a dynamic (editable?) ladder, a boon for troubleshooting. I have 75% of the work done on the FS6, therefore it is the easiest one to do. There are many other advantages to this type of retrofit; I'll post a list later. Of course, everyone will have their own reasons to retrofit or not. Right now, I am gathering feedback.
Appreciate, as always, your opinions.

[memoryman]

barchdesigns, we don't have any videos of that. It was running 4 axes simultaneously at the 2004 IMTS. It is still operable, but would be extensively redesigned. Maybe I will make a video (time!)

[barchdesigns]

Bill, Is your project "open source"? I'd still be interested in seeing what you have done and taking it further. I've decided to replace the whole Fanuc 6M control and drives on my Vertical CNC sooner than later.

Are there any retrofit threads you guys have come across that could point me in the right direction?

Benjamin
Barch Designs
877-201-9771

[memoryman]

Thank you for your interest, Benjamin.
These products will not be 'open source', but are done using a Windows based PC (for HMI) and Delta Tau for motion control. We had a FS6 based system in beta prototyping 8 years ago, but for personal reasons was shelved.
Delta Tau has a number of products that can help you, including a retrofit control and drives.
Our concept is specifically targeted to those who don't want to replace drives/motors.

[tc429]

I spoke with you at the show, was really happy to see what you were doing...think you have one of 3 PC programmers I know of still in existence btw- the 5 volt power supply in mine died recently...

from a retrofitter standpoint, my biggest beef with the 6 was the reed relay I/O card, maint guys wanted ladder display too. we had some delta-tau controls back in the first few yrs they were out, they all got pitched...trouble we had with them was I/O, machines jogging/starting themselves, etc...prtetty sure the issue was 100% bad installation, but they had a serial I/O card that didnt like getting dirty or something, tended to fail in bad ways...i wasnt involved with them at all except for pulling the pmac cards out of the computers they pitched, but heard lots of bad things from the guys messing with them.

having a option to use the zero series op panel would be nice, everyone knows that panel...playing around when things were slow, I had wrote a ladder to put one on a 6, only issue was had to use the S12 bit transistor outputs for the LED strobes, (16msec is way too fast for reeds to survive) was going to try and put a zero MDI/CRT on it too, but got busy, forgot about it...

the drawbacks to the 6 were cpu speed and small memory size- your memory cards are great, but servo performance was still limited...we had a few 486 0-c controls with the analog axis cards, those in my opinion were the fastest thing out there...they tout serial, but IMO serial=cheap, thats the driving force behind it...
those Cs with 6050 amps could run with param 517 maxed at 32767, near zero following error, servos got hot, but werent noisy, ran incredibly tight... with a 486 chip the old fanuc 73106 or whatever axis LSI really shines, even though lowly analog...think about it, no matter the screaming baudrate, serial takes time to encode/ send/ recieve/ acknowledge...the old LSI took quadrature directly and output analog thru a 455 op amp right to the drive...real time, real current feedback in the drive, they can really run tight, no hokus-pokus three kinds of backlash acceleration comp required there... I really think you might be able to make something that outperforms the interpolation accuracy of the latest stuff out there.

suggestion if looking for a product to make- start producing zero operator panel replacements- that is probably the single most common piece of CNC hardware on earth currently, and age has taken its toll on a lot of them. the way fanuc makes them, the buttons have a ground input, with no load resistor, if they get the least bit of moisture in from a failing membrane the keys short 'on', we buy a lot of those keyboards...most folks out there swap the whole panel out. 'hinuc' makes a line of common panels too, they are expensive and fail frequently too...on my list of things to do is adapt a standard zero panel to replace, but rewiring and ladder required...

along similar lines, might suggest a plug compatible/clock compatible serial I/O card for your 6 replacement...allow folks to keep their old flaky i/o if they want to keep costs down, but better yet, allow a better i/o only replacement unit...option to keep the 6, toss the relay i/o card and replace with a compatible new unit...might be a good way for folks to 'migrate' to your whole control later too... IIRC you already had it on a plate with the same bolt pattern/etc... do the same with I/O , a jumper for the slow 6 clock speed/your new control clock speed, expander for 'second connection unit' type addl I/O...I think it might be pretty cool.

the old 6 keyboards are getting aged too, we only have one 6TB-2 still online currently(probably 50 in storage) and theyve swapped a couple mdi keyboards the last couple years on it... the old 6 op panels are pretty beat on most we have in storage...think ive got 1 new one left, but thats it. still think making a 'zero looking' front end might be a good idea- everyone knows it, its basic, but fully functional.

only other suggestion, might be consider a set of eprom sockets for your PLC to read the old ladder...if they just had to plug in the eproms to load the basic ladder (editable later) it might be more attractive to non-retrofitters out there. I wrote a basic program yrs ago that can extract mnemonics from the raw eprom data if you want it...its ugly, but works for pmc-A...tried recently on a pmc-b 4 chip set for someone, it wont run- but think it could be easily tweaked, the data is pretty similar.

[memoryman]

Great suggestions. I'll take them one at a time.
I don't have a programmer; borrowed one.
The QF6 (our name) will use the current i/o interface. As a product, the i/o cards are not a priority.
The mdi/display panel will look like a i-series control with 10.1" lcd.
The operator panel replacement is interesting; what do you see as a price
point?
I too wrote a basic program yrs ago that can extract mnemonics from the raw eprom data if you want it; works well. The ladder will be completely integrated, with no need to do any coding. It will be dynamic and editable.
The whole idea is to make the whole installation 2days max.
The 0 series cnc is a possible target too; already developed a crt/mdi replacement that puts the full keyboard in the same space as a small one.
Give me a call sometime when you have some time: 289 389 6117.
Thanks for the input.
Bill