[the professor]

I got a free 1989 victor v center 4 VMC that is not working. It boots up, but will not home or jog or mdi or run programs. there are no errors or alarms on the screen. This machine has no machining enclosure interlocks and no lube level sensors. All of the tool changer limit and proximity switches show changes of state on a diagnostics screen if I manually rotate or put in home position the tool changer by hand. The rotary selecter switch for mem, edit, mdi, handel, and jog is the only switch that the brain responds to.
All I can do is mpg just the x axis and only at the slowest rate. The connection board and the DI/DO board were sent out by the previous owner to be tested and they were claimed to be good. One test outfit wrote that all the non working panel switch signals would take turns or "multiplex" over about 8 lines from the connection board back to the mother board but it was seeing or responding to only some of the signals.
Please, I need you help, ideas Thanks Larry Reiss Omaha NE
[email protected]

[Al_The_Man]

Did you check all of the panel switches on the diagnostic screen? If some register and some not, (obviously the function SW. is OK) you may have a 24v feed on the panel come loose or wire broken. All the switches should register in the diagnostic page. Multi-switches like the Function or feedrate are coded BCD.
This should be corrected before going further.
Al.

[Dan Fritz]

Al_The_Man is probably right. The symptoms you're describing seem to indicate that the operator's panel inputs are not getting to the CNC.

It's curious that your mode select switch is still working. If you change modes on the rotary switch, you should see the words "MDI", "AUTO", "EDIT", etc. appear on the CRT screen. If they do, then at least the 24v signals from the mode select switch are working. It almost seems like the CNCs internal PLC is not running.

I'd also look to see if you have +24vdc on each of the panel switches. For example, the X+ jog switch should have +24v on one side, and the other side should change to +24v when you press the switch. If much of the panel seems to be dead, look for a blown fuse somewhere.

If all the panel switches and buttons seem to have power, then the 24v signals are probably getting to the I/O card, but (like you say), something is stopping them from getting through.

This machine uses the Fanuc PLC (Programmable Logic Controller), which is built-in to the control itself. The signals come in to the I/O card, and the PLC logic in the "Ladder" are responsible for passing them through to the CNC. It's possible that the PLC is not running, or that the option parameter for the PLC has been turned off. Look for some documentation from Victor called the "Ladder Diagram". This will help any technician troubleshoot the I/O signals using the CNCs diagnostics.

Could someone have been messing around with the option parameters on this machine? If you think that's possible, look in the CNC cabinet for a piece of paper giving the original factory "options" as a list of hex numbers like this:

01 0C
02 3F
03 24
04 1C
(etc.)
- you should have 16 options for early 10M controls, or 32 options for later models.

If you have a list like this, then it would be wise to re-enter the option parameters with this procedure:

Turn off the control
Hold the minus (-) and the decimal point (.) keys in at the same time
Turn on the control and let it start up
You'll get an "IPL" menu with selections from "1" to "6".
Enter "99" then press INPUT (you'll get the word "AXES?" on the CRT)
Enter "3" for a 3-axis mill or "4" for a 4-axis mill, then INPUT
You'll get the word "OPTION 01?" on the CRT
Enter the first hex number from your list and press INPUT
You'll get the work "OPTION 02?" on the CRT
Enter each option number in hex until they're all entered
The original 1-6 menu comes back
Press "6" then INPUT to exit this menu and boot the control.

This procedure just writes the parameters between 9100 and 9132, which you can't do in the usual way. This method was used to make it difficult enough so that customers would not enter their own options, yet not so difficult that the service techs couldn't do it. "OPTION 01" is the hex value of parameter 9100, "OPTION 02" is the hex value of parameter 9101, etc.

Once your option parameters are back to their factory settings, try the I/O switches again. If things work better, then it's likely that someone was trying to add an option without paying for it and goofed things up.

[the professor]

First off, Thank you both very much for taking the time and effort to respond. I am serious, just e mail where to send case of beer/ pop, box of donuts, steak dinners.
I am not all that knowageable about cnc or electronics, kind of a novice. I ran out of ideas and leads for this machine about 2 years ago. I have the ladder diagram pages which I have only a minimul understanding of. And I have the fanuc 10m operators and maintainence manual. I dont have the option docs.
The mode switch is the only one working, plus all of the display soft keys and alphanumeric push buttons. If I am in mdi mode and key in a axis move, it responds, start rejected.
There is 24 volts to the various pannel push bottons and switches that dont work and the diagnostic screens dont see changes of state for the various non working selector switchs and push bottons. I will start looking for fuses to check.
The ladder screen showing the multiplexing lines seems eradic to me, but I do not know how a signal that should be changing many, many times a second should appear.
The idea of someone playing with option parmeters is interesting. I will ask around. Maybe someone will be honest with me.
This idea is probably to simple to work for a test. Could I set all the 16 or 32 9100 series options to "off". I dont know what the hex value of "off" would be.
Two other weird symtoms are: ocasionally when the machine is turned on, the tool pot will snap to the down position and unrelated to that some times in the hot summer time after the machine has been on for a while a heavy relay on the door panel will start chattering with no other effect.
Thanks again Larry Reiss Omaha NE [email protected]

[Al_The_Man]

It is possible you have a fibre-optic cable to the operator console, which has a local I/O connection Unit for the different I/O functions for the buttons etc, BTW do any indicator lights work?
You should not normally see the Ladder update for functions like switches, IOW they should show continuously when placed either on or off. It is possble the local I/O board Connection Unit is defective.
For the other problems, you would need to establish what function the relay has to trouble shoot effectively
Al.

[Dan Fritz]

I do NOT recommend that you set all the option parameters to zero. That would pretty much disable the entire control.

Please look again for that options list. Victor always shipped a piece of paper (called an "onionskin" because it was so thin). You may find it inside the back cabinet of the machine, possibly in a plastic baggie.

If you can't find the onionskin, maybe we can find another forum member with a Victor V Center 4 who will post the options from his control.

[the professor]

Thanks again,
I looked at the parameter list again, and saw that the 9100 series parameters were listed with all of the others in the zero through seventh bit format of zero's and ones. The machine was set, same as the list. But it didnt look like a factory document. I was confused when Al mentioned resetting the 9100 options in hex format, I dont have a sheet with that information. But I think one of the fanuc manuals mentioned how to convert values to hex or binary, so I can figure that out if need be in the future.
I found fuses on the mother board and its power supply,all checked good. None inside the control panel enclosure. The mother board 2 digit display shows 1.
There is no fiber optic connection to the control panel board, I don't think this machine has any fiber optics at all.
The row of lights flash on at start for lamp check and then go out, except for "over ride on", it stays on. It means that rapid or spindel speed is set at other than 100%. None of the lamps light built in the push bottons like single block, z neglect, block delete.
The mode switch settings do display on the bottom of the screen.
The wiring schematics show all of the rotary switches and push bottons connect to 0 volts.And the emergency button, control panel lamps and led's and limit switches connect to +24 volts. There is 24 volts present on the connection board.
Thanks again Larry Reiss Omaha Ne [email protected]

[Al_The_Man]

I was confused when Al mentioned resetting the 9100 options in hex format,
[/email]

Actually that was Dan.

If the status changes on the bottom of the screen then it means the PLC is running.
The fact the inputs have zero mean that the board sources, the inputs sink to common, and vise-versa for the outputs.
So in the case of the switches, it could be an open common rather than a 24v line as I first mentioned.
If you can locate the connection board for the operator panel inputs, you could see if they are being switched right at the card honda plug, if you take a voltage reading on any of the input PB lines they should show 24vdc until the Button is operated, they should then go to zero.
On some systems the 24vdc common is not grounded so you may have to find the common terminal, rather than use ground for your meter.
If you jumper any of the inputs to common right at the Honda plug, they should show on the diagnostic screen.
Al.

[Dan Fritz]

The hexadecimal method of entering parameters in the 9100 area is only needed when you need to enter or change these parameters. You can't enter these with the usual method, even though you can display them normally.

If your parameters look OK in this area, you don't need to re-enter the options in hex.

Please double-check that all 8 bits of parameter 2001 is set correctly according to your list. Any changes in this parameter can mess up all the I/O signals.

[the professor]

parameter 2001 was to spec. 2014 and 2015 were to spec at 1000 milisecond. would'nt 1000 miliseconds = 1 full second? A full second for electrical chatter to subside?

[Al_The_Man]

I read 2014 & 2015 to be used for a condition where mode selection is either unselected or illegal condition such as when mode selector switch is between functions etc.
and/or PLC scan is over and these conditions can be ignored for this period of time. If so I sec. seems a bit long but this should not be important.
Al.

[Dan Fritz]

I agree. The other parameter in 2001 that it refers to lets you keep the previous mode active while this time check is being performed, so it looks like this function is really meant to keep the current mode active while the mode select switch is between positions. If you rotate the mode select switch slowly, you would have to be between positions for more that one second to make the CNC get an "illegal" input. Makes sense.

I still think your PLC is not running for some reason. I'll check my documentation to see what I can find on this.

[Al_The_Man]

I would have thought that if the PLC was not running switch updates like the function switch should not display the status and also you should be able to see the function switch change on the ladder display?
If limits switches status can be seen to change in their ladder function the PLC should be running I would think.
Al.

[the professor]

On the ladder screens you can see change of state for the mode switch, edit-panel-operate key, various limit switches and the start button next to the screen.

[Dan Fritz]

This subject gets a bit into the guts of the PLC, but I think it's worth mentioning.

When you don't use the Fanuc PLC, each I/O location is permanently assigned by Fanuc. For example, if you want the CNC to be in MDI mode, there is a 24v input signal for "MDI". Another input signal is for "EDIT", another input signal is for "+X Jog", etc. You've got to wire up your operator's panel to the assigned input points, or things will not work properly.

If you use the PLC, then YOU can assign each input point. Basically, it won't matter which panel switch you connect to each input signal on the I/O board, because you can freely assign I/O addresses to each input signal in the PC ladder logic. Most of the time, the machine tool builders will wire up the signals to the most convenient I/O connector pin, and not pay any attention to the mapping provided by Fanuc for those who are not using the PLC.

Now, if Victor decided to use the PLC, and wired up the operator's panel the way they wanted to, then someone turned off the PLC option in the control .... well, you can guess what will happen: Those inputs that coincidentally match the pre-assigned input map will work, and the rest will not. In fact, you may find that by pressing the +X jog button the feedrate overrride will change (and many more strange things might happen).

This is why I suspected that you PLC was not running. It's because some of your I/O signals were working (the mode switch) and others weren't.

One other thing could be causing your problem: There is a yellow "module" that contains the EPROM chips for the PLC ladder logic. If someone replaced your module with a different one, then your PLC ladder might really be for a different machine. THAT would also mess things up pretty badly.

If you have a printed "Ladder Diagram" for this machine, check the series and version numbers in the front of the document and see if it matches the numbers on the yellow EPROM module inside the CNC.

Obviously, this machine got messed up before you got it, no? Someone probably did something pretty stupid, like replace the EPROM module with the wrong one, modify the option parameters, or possibly swap two I/O cables on the I/O board. I'd look for "dumb and simple" mistakes before I'd look for more sophisticated problems.

[the professor]

I will be checking those ideas soon. I just e mailed a guy in Missouri, has a machine like mine. I had sent him my ladder sheets last year and it helped get his machine running. I want to compare his parameters and mine.
He could only run programs in mdi, but not in mem. It turned out to be a door limit switch signal problem.
Thanks Again for trying to help me! Larry Reiss

[Al_The_Man]

A couple of way you could probabally check to see if the ladder is Kosher is to montor a couple of ladder rungs and see if they are doing what they are supposed to.
If you have a PMC module fitted and the ladder is running, the PMC or PLC communicates with the CNC over a buss called the Basic Machine Interface (BMI) in the Maintenance manual diagnostics this is shown as BMI-DO & BMI-DI . these are dedicated inputs and outputs that are sent or read by the ladder to the CNC control.
The are actually G and F registers used in the ladder for this purpose, and have the same mnemonics.
For example if you say you are in the HW X and it moves very small increments, this is probabally because all the inputs that are set by the increment switch are all zero.
If you look in the ladder, you should find rungs that have MP1 MP2 & MP3 outputs, these will have dedicated outputs to the CNC allocated G006.2 (MP1) G006.3 (MP2) and G006.4 (MP4).
These G registers will be used regardless, so if you can find them see what happens when in the MPG function, you change the Increment switch and see if the G register bits change and if not, what in the rung is preventing them.
Also on the ladder screen you should see 'Monitor Run' at the top.
Any bits that change in the BMI-DI diagnostic screen, means they are generally being written to by the PMC.
Al.

[the professor]

The 3 handel inputs are off. Going through the ladder and bmi diagnostic screens there are a dozen or so signals that change state continously about every second or two.
I need to do a bunch of studying and get a better understanding of the basic ladder symbols II I/I n open , n closed when there are chained together in a line. pretty basic isn't it. And when you get to the end of that line is it good that it is lit up or bad. My mind has gotten in a fog, trying to trace through various signals on the ladder screens.
It looks like this has come to a stand still for a while.
Several questions. With the power off to the machine, can the yellow cartriges be unpluged from the mother board without loseing their memory. Are the ladder instructions permently burned in the yelow cartrige. If I was to replace the mother board, is there any thing else reload besides the pitch and parameters? Does the 9100 parameters also reload from a tape or file saved to a laptop?

Al, Don, I want to thank you both again. And my offer stands.
Larry Reiss

[Al_The_Man]

If you find the rungs with the G006.* outputs, somewhere in the rung is the H.W. increment switch inputs and they should change (become highlighted ) in the ladder rung as you operate the switch. Ladder logic is based on boolean logic.
If a rung is completed the final output should be highlighted, and this can also be seen in the BMI diagnostic screen, if you cannot get the rung output to show on, look at NO NC conditions in the rung that are not made and identify them.
The PMC cartridge can be unplugged without losing data.
Al.