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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Haas Machines > Haas Mills > Should I get Thru-Spindle Coolant on DT-1?
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    0

    Should I get Thru-Spindle Coolant on DT-1?

    I'm ready to pull the trigger on a new DT-1 with the following options:

    • High-Speed Machining
    • Intuitive Programming System
    • Visual Quick Code
    • Auto Air Gun
    • Auger
    • Programmable Coolant Nozzle
    • Wireless Intuitive Probing System


    Essentially the only option I'm struggling with is through-spindle coolant. This option requires an additional filter system and so total extra cost for TSC comes in around $6500.

    As a start-up, we will focus on making our own product parts (aluminum, small 3"x5"x1/2", 60% removal, 18 holes). I don't know for sure if our future parts will have deeper holes or pockets, but right now we don't require TSC.

    With that being said, would it still make sense to have this option? I see this as a decision that must be made at the time of order, so I don't want to screw it up and make the wrong one.

    Money is tight, but I would rather skip eating every other day instead of getting this wrong!

    Thanks and I look forward to everyones comments.

    By the way, the reason I'm choosing a DT-1 over say a Super Mini or VF-x is the cycle time. These parts will go into a consumer product where cost is sensitive. Additionally, the material will be 99% aluminum with the possibility of Delrin, ABS, or TFE down the road.

    Thanks!!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    32
    If you are going to be doing many holes, gun drilling or tapping decently deep it's nice to have.

    I am already looking to move away from tapping with my vf2 and more to machining threads or forming them due to issues I have had with tapping 0.5" deep 1/4-20 holes. Even with oversize bores.

    In slowing it down it looks to have been caused by the inability to get the chips out of the threads of the tap, so they build up and either strip the threads or break the taps.

    It's times like that when I wish I had through spindle coolant, but instead I will just tweak my processes.

    I feel for you. It's a tough decision to spec a machine and cover everything you want/might need at the beginning. I am going through the same thoughts on a lathe right now.

    Can your budget comfortable cover it? If so I would do it personally. If I ever buy a new machine I would have it, but obviously it depends on your parts and work loads.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    713
    For production, I wouldn't be without TSC. You can buy facemills with TSC capability and have less coolant mist, run higher surface speeds reliably and go deeper in pockets.

    Drills are the other obvious example, but don't just think about indexables. Coolant through carbide drills can be invaluable. It's the difference in running 115 SFM drilling in Delrin or Ultem (etc.) and 500 SFM with higher chip load and no pecks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    0
    My first two parts are 6061 3" x 5" x 1/2" with a lot of pocketing, but DOC is only 0.400". There are 18 holes though in the ranges of 0.25" DIA x 0.5" thru 0.125" DIA x 0.5", along with some 4-40 threading and 6-32 threading. No deep holes at this time, I don't think I'll be going deeper than 3-4 X drill diameter. I've need some gun drilling in the past, but subbed it out. Yikes - I didn't even think about that until now...

    As a side effect of having TSC, the system will require an additional 20 micron filter system. I'm thinking this could be beneficial the the overall condition of the machine over time regardless. Not sure.

    Talking to my Sandvik guy, he says besides the benefits for deep drilling, my cycle times can be much shorter and surface finish much better for any 'non-deep' work as well.

    In the end I can afford the TSC option, but as a startup something else will have to wait if need be. I guess I would prioritize TSC since I don't get a do-over.

    I hate pecking cycles, at least on a slow mach ion. It's like nails on a chalkboard to me (rant over .

    Read some guy with Fadal VMC's experienced leaks with their TSC system - it really made me hesitate. While I like to have the right tool for the job, simplicity has value (one less thing to go wrong).

    In the end, I just want the best setup that gets my current job done, and has enough flexibility to keep the machine cutting the best it can in future applications. I certainly don't don't want a problematic feature though, if it adds any headaches (i.e. leaks, mechanical issues, etc.).

    Thanks again all!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    6028
    If the HAAS TSC has good pressure ( never seen one on a HAAS ) it will pay for itself in the first 6 months. I installed plenty of Cooljets and ChipBlasters on machines, and every single time the cycle times came down on parts. Even non TSC tools benefit if running them with a ER collet, since the coolant shoots straight down the tool sides.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    97
    We had the spindle bearing that the TSC coolant system is attached to, go out on a new machine.

    Cost to fix it; $1,000, machine warranty covered it, but time was a real problem. The shop was fully booked up, Xmas vacation and the holidays were just a week away and all the techs were swamped.

    We have never even used TSC, not even once...

    My 0.02c worth...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    0
    The DT-1 has a 300 PSI and 1000 PSI TSC options. The 1000 PSI version is roughy twice the cost of 300 ($6K vs $12K).

    I've been in the pressure sensor business for years and 300 PSI is a lot of pressure, I'm surprised 1000 PSI would ever be needed. Obviously I haven't seen it all

    I heard about benefits with standard tooling, although I was to make sure the toolholder was the correct TSC type though. Said the lines will blow out if you put a non-TSC holder in by mistake. I would think a safety feature would catch that...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    0
    We had the spindle bearing that the TSC coolant system is attached to, go out on a new machine.

    Cost to fix it; $1,000, machine warranty covered it, but time was a real problem. The shop was fully booked up, Xmas vacation and the holidays were just a week away and all the techs were swamped.

    We have never even used TSC, not even once...

    My 0.02c worth...


    Man, that's the story that gives me heartburn. I can see our tiny group hovering over the new machine wondering how to fill orders...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1852
    Had it on another Haas mill I had, VF-4, used a bit, but not as much as you would think. Best for large deep pockets(like molds), deep hole drill if a good size hole etc.

    But, remember that the tools you use need to be through drilled to use TSC. Drills, endmills, cutters,----all much much higher cost.

    Extra maintenance, filters to buy, must be used to keep in good shape, with use comes more filters, etc. etc. Possible damage to spindle is leaks occur.

    $6,500 buys a lot of tooling, or a really nice useful 4th Axis!!!!!

    Mike
    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    0
    Had it on another Haas mill I had, VF-4, used a bit, but not as much as you would think. Best for large deep pockets(like molds), deep hole drill if a good size hole etc.

    But, remember that the tools you use need to be through drilled to use TSC. Drills, endmills, cutters,----all much much higher cost.

    Extra maintenance, filters to buy, must be used to keep in good shape, with use comes more filters, etc. etc. Possible damage to spindle is leaks occur.

    $6,500 buys a lot of tooling, or a really nice useful 4th Axis!!!!!

    Mike
    __________________
    Haas VF-2, HA5C, BobCAD V23


    I think this is where my head is at the moment. Decision is due on Monday, so I will sleep [drink] on it.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    6028
    IMO wouldn't waste my time or money for 300PSI. Just replace the stock coolant pump with a booster pump from graingers and run 225PSI then. Cost would be less.
    DAYTON Pump, Booster, CI, 1 1/2 HP, 208-230/460V - Multi-Stage Booster Pumps and Systems - 5NYA0|5NYA0 - Grainger Industrial Supply

    We used to install these in the way back time machine before high pressure pumps were on machines. Work just fine.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    0
    IMO wouldn't waste my time or money for 300PSI. Just replace the stock coolant pump with a booster pump from graingers and run 225PSI then. Cost would be less.
    DAYTON Pump, Booster, CI, 1 1/2 HP, 208-230/460V - Multi-Stage Booster Pumps and Systems - 5NYA0|5NYA0 - Grainger Industrial Supply

    We used to install these in the way back time machine before high pressure pumps were on machines. Work just fine.


    Just so I understand fully, you're suggesting not getting TSC and utilizing the stock flood coolant and programmable nozzle, and just boost the stock pump, giving higher pressure?

    Seems like an interesting approach... although I don't know what maximum pressure is allowed through the p-nozzle...

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    713
    The thing is, is that if you're afraid of possible failures, you better not buy a CNC machine at all. Yes it's possible that the TSC pump or coupling will let you down, but there's a hundred other parts on that mill that can have the same effect.

    And cost of tooling for production really doesn't mean much. If a tool costs 2x more because of through coolant but it produces 4x the parts... that's pretty easy math.

    For the work you are talking about so far, I would stick with 300psi. It doesn't do a great job on super deep holes or tools with large orifices, but that's not what we're talking about. Remember that TSC pressure requirements goes up as the hole gets deeper, so shallow holes are not an issue.

    Also, don't be surprised when this system doesn't actually produce 300psi. I think that's a dead-headed rating because the most I've ever seen out of mine was around 250psi through a roughly 1/8" drill. Through an ER32 collet it's down around 150psi.

    Check to see if the spindle RPM is limited while using TSC on the DT-1. On VF-ss machines, it's limited to 10k.

    As far as filters goes, my mill is an '07 and I still have the same filter that came in the machine in use. Granted, I don't use the TSC a huge amount and I put a lot of effort in keeping chips out of my sump, but if it comes down to replacing filters as a deciding factor, I don't think it's a valid concern.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    161
    Programable nozzle won't help in deep holes, you'd better pick a high pressure pump and attach a hose in the machine pointing down the tip of the tool from the "square spindle enclosure or turret" (the place with the haas logo and letters, i don't know how it is called it) so coolant will get into holes flowing thru the sides of the tool at a higer flow-pressure than it'd be doing from the side.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1852
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt@RFR View Post
    And cost of tooling for production really doesn't mean much. If a tool costs 2x more because of through coolant but it produces 4x the parts... that's pretty easy math.
    It makes four times the parts!?!?!?!?!?! Get me two with extra fries please!
    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    6028
    Quote Originally Posted by Machineit View Post
    It makes four times the parts!?!?!?!?!?! Get me two with extra fries please!
    Think he means tool life, and I can attest to the 1000psi systems really helping there.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    0
    TSC docs say spindle speed is limited to 12k, which actually is the max RPM anyway. I think that note applied when the DT-1 spindle max RPM was 15K - it is now 12K.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    1852
    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    Think he means tool life, and I can attest to the 1000psi systems really helping there.
    Sure, probably. But, think about the long run and that nice HRT-210 sitting on that table.
    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    490
    One thing you will want to note about the pressures is that they're relative to your tooling. The TSC pump doesn't provide 300-psi, but rather it provides the flow that can excert x-pressure once constricted. When using a tool with large coolant orifices you can expect to see less pressure, say 100-psi or less. And vice versa, smaller tools with tighter orifices will create more pressure leading through. It also depends on how deep the drill is going.
    You won't be able to use TSC drills beneath a certain diameter without upgrading to the high pressure option. It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer but generally 3/16" is around the limit. Beneat that, the flow is inadequate to create the necessary pressure. (in other words you need more pressure to drive those smaller tools).

    I just wnated to point that out because I've heard people complain about how they're running one of those huge 45-insert insert peripheral roughers and their TSC is only dribbling out the ports.

    The newer vertical mills have the coolant bypass port drop right out in front of the spindle so it's somewhat wasy to see if something were to go wrong. At least that's what I heard (I have a newer TSC machine but I haven't used the old design enough to appreciate the differences).

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    48
    Normally the manufacturer will give you a GPM rating. Not sure if Haas does this or not, but it's the only way to truely rate the system. PSI will depend on tool orifice size.

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