[CorporalChaos]

Hello,

I've been lurking here for awhile, but this is my first post. I've tried to pick up what I can understand, but this CNC stuff can be pretty intimidating at times . I've been fascinated by manufacturing for the longest time now, and as a result I have been wanting to teach myself CNC machining. To open the doors, I'm thinking of starting a small company and investing $10,000-$15,000 in a home workshop. Please bear in mind, that money won't just be for CNC equipment, but it must also cover the cost of a building and assorted hand and power tools. For a mill and lathe, I'm thinking of purchasing the Sherline CNC machine shop package pictured here, but I would probably upgrade to the optional 8-direction mill. The total for the package will come out to around $5,000. The parts I want to make will for the most part be small firearms parts, and the material will typically be aluminum, stainless steel, chrome moly steel, and tungsten.

Now to my questions. First, is this a good package for what I want to accomplish, or is there a better alternative that includes both a CNC mill AND lathe and falls within the same ballpark price? I definately do not want a Chinese product, but I would be open to other suggestions. Also, what would be some good reading material for me to learn the subject of CNC and associated programming languages, considering I have absolutely no background in machining?

That's all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance.

Below are some pictures of a part I would like to make. The small cylinder is tungsten, and the larger piece is stainless steel. (Sorry about the poor pics).

[JFettig]

sounds like a good plan, but do yourself a favor and get a bridgeport clone for under $5(not cnc).
Sherline machines are by no means for production of any sort. You will be very dissapointed.

I wouldnt even consider putting stainless steel and sherline in the same sentence or anything else you stated other than aluminum.

Jon

[wizard]

I have to agree with the statements below. Sherline has an excellent line of hardware but I suspect that you will be asking to much of it to regularlly try to machine the materials in question.

Though you do not seem to be interested some of the chinese small lathes and mills would likely do a better job. Yes it would still be a struggle but I suspct that you would have success on the materials you quote, on a hobby or very low production rate.

As mentioned a clone of a Bridgeport may be a good place to start or possibly a square column RongFu type mill. In either case the CNC conversion is do it yourself. As to other avenues just about all new CNC mills are likely to break you budget. The alternative, if you are up to it, are used hardware with faulty controls. Going new with you budget puts you back into a square column mill or small Bridgeport clone. These may be the better alternatives to a full blown CNC as you will have manual capabilities.

As to a lathe I'd suggest that it may be even harder to benefit from CNC here without going with a full blown CNC machine. That of course depends on your parts and production rates, but most of the lathed firearm parts I know about would likely beenfit from a swiss machine and possibly a machine with live tooling capability. So a small chinese lathe of about 10" swing ought to do well, given enough clearance through the spindle. YOu could CNC it and get advatage for a few parts, but I'd have to wonder how much you could actually accomplish productively. As I see it there are few parts in modern firearms that can be done well on simple CNC equipment without a tool changer and other capabilites. I do understand that some pins and such could be done on a simple CNC machine, but even here a swiss type machine might be the better choice.

Thanks
Dave

sounds like a good plan, but do yourself a favor and get a bridgeport clone for under $5(not cnc).
Sherline machines are by no means for production of any sort. You will be very dissapointed.

I wouldnt even consider putting stainless steel and sherline in the same sentence or anything else you stated other than aluminum.

Jon

[JFettig]

As for a mill, I bet the tormach mill would be a good one to scope out.

otherwize Industrialhobbies.com has a nice machine and retrofit.
its more of a diy type thing but about all you have to do is set up the controll box and get a pc. I think you might have to do most of the assembly of the machine too.


Jon

[CorporalChaos]

I've been further examining my options and have concluded that initial investment will need to be higher than $15,000, and that's okay; it will just take a little longer. I've been looking at the Tormach PCNC 1100 for a mill, and I will probably pursue that avenue. Would the Hardinge HLV Toolroom Lathe suit my needs? Since I'm going to be spending more, I figure I may as well try to do it all right the first time. Basically for a lathe, I would need to be able to turn the parts and materials listed above, as well as profile and thread barrels, fabricate suppressor tubes (probably max 9"x2" in size) out of titanium, and suppressor baffles. Just for giggles, how much would the Hardinge HLV run new? Would there be a better option for my needs in the $10,000-$20,000 range? How about the price on a new Hardinge EZ Vision Automated CNC MIll? I'm not too interested in used equipment at the moment. Generally I like to get my foot in the door with new stuff, so I can learn without too many headaches, then once I know what I'm doing I will take on restoring/refabing used equipment.

Thanks again.

[CorporalChaos]

Well, I've been thinking this over, doing more research and whatnot, and I think I might compromise and get a Chinese import. If I do that, will a Sieg X2 or X3 handle tungsten and titanium? How about the 7x14 lathe from Micro Mark?

Thanks.

[JFettig]

I doubt it on the x3 and no with the lathe.
the 7x lathe cant even drill a 1/2" hole in stainless without a really big pilot hole.

The x3 just isnt even made for low rpm high torque opperations.
I think you need to do some reading and learning.

Jon

[SND]

Seems like all you need is a basic manual lathe and a mill/drill. Tooling cost does add up pretty fast but with 15K you should be able to set up a half decent little shop. Depends on how good of a shopper you are and how good you want your tools to be.

A new HLV-H costs about 45 000$ and thats bare, add another 5K minimum for some basic tooling and collets.
I've been looking for one and the prices are way too high even on the 40+ year old hardinges. Some people do find good deals, I just haven't. A decent copy is about 20K + tooling and such again.
When it comes to such prices its time to start looking at CNC equipment.

The Tormach cnc mill looks pretty nice. Considering it myself.

Once you start buying tools and equipment, it never stops.

[radicooldude]

I suggest buying the tormach, and getting an old lathe super heavy duty off e-bay or local, and putting a dro on it.

[fpworks]

When considering your budget, take a look at your workshop:
*software: CAD, CAM--you kind of get what you pay for here, but you may not need it, if you do need it, you better have a decent computer and monitor.
*insulation: walls, doors, garage doors (exterior garage walls are usually not insulated)
*heating/cooling: separate air conditioner/heater?
*dehudification: otherwise you'll have rusted machines/tools/instruments
*3 phase power: rotary phase converter (RPC), what size will you need? (running mill/lathe at the same time?)
*power: you will probably have to run a second 200 or 400 amp electrical service to run the RPC, air conditioner, lights, dehumidifier, air compressor, etc. Check will your power company
*air: a 30 gallon air compressor won't be able to keep up with a commercial machine with an automatic tool changer, it will be running constantly. It is loud and irritating, so you'll probably want to move your air compressor far away and hard pipe air to your shop...and this costs money also. I highly recommend a 60+ gallon, 6+ hp air compressor that can run several machines and will last for years.
*instrumentation/gaging: these add up real quick, but you can save a lot of money if you take your time and get name brand new, slightly used instruments from ebay. You should still have them calibrated.
*tooling: this is a monster and can add several thousand dollars to your budget (or much more depending on what you need) to tool up for a lathe and mill with ATC
*workholding: vices, parallels, indexer, etc. I wouldn't go with cheap stuff here.
*other irritating things that add up: retention knobs, coolant, power bill for running machinery and dehumidifier, extra collets, tap collets, inserts, perishable tooling, soft jaws, work tables, part bins, shelves, and a lot more, but I've lost track!

I run a business out of my home, and I started with the Sherline, and here's what I can say about it: it was good to initially learn CNC because it is slow and weak and it isn't intimidating. Commercial CNC machines are very fast and powerful, and trust me, you can't hit e-stop or slide hold fast enough if you make certain mistakes with your program. The consequences of crashing a Sherline are a LOT lower than crashing a commercial machine.

I still use a Sherline lathe in my shop, but only for simple tool and fixture making. It will cut small diameter H11 tool steel just fine, but it takes WAY TOO LONG and makes a big mess. My Sherline mill sits in the corner. Sherline machines are pretty good for learning and that is about it.

The price for a Sherline could be justified depending on the price of local classes. Considering that you don't have any machining experience, taking some classes may be a better option. Even getting a part time job in the evening working with a toolmaker would be a HUGE benefit.

If you have any questions, zap me an email with your phone number.
[email protected]

[CorporalChaos]

When considering your budget, take a look at your workshop:

EXCELLENT information (or at least it reads like it from my inexperienced perspective)! I'm still working on what I want to do for a shop (build an addition onto the house, or erect a steel building on a concrete foundation). For heating and cooling I could probably get away with just a floor fan or two, and a propane/electric heater for winter use. I live in Arizona, so with that in mind, do you really think I would need a dehumidifier? We really don't get much humidity. Power is something that I still need to do a LOT of research on. Ideally, I will eventually be on solar/wind power, but I know enough about those at the moment to know they're both presently out of my reach.

As it stands now, I'll probably be buying a Sieg X3 and a 7x or 8x lathe within the next two months or so. I'll use these to practice manual machining on aluminum, and then work on CNCing the X3 to learn CAD/CAM and G&M Code. Once I have a firm grasp of those concepts, I'll most likely be upgrading to the Tormach. A lathe will require further research, but it will definately be a requirement.

Those are my thoughts for now anyway. Please feel free to shoot them full of holes if my logic seems flawed.