[Rekd]

Leading climate change experts have thrown their weight behind two scientists who hit out at the "Hollywoodisation" of global warming.

Professors Paul Hardaker and Chris Collier, both Royal Meteorological Society figures, criticised fellow scientists they accuse of "overplaying" the message.

The pair spoke at a conference in Oxford today entitled Making Sense of Weather and Climate and organised by Sense about Science, a scientific trust set up to help dispel the myths surrounding polemic issues such as climate change.

In the mean time, another challenge has been made to Al Gore to debate Global Warming, with the question:

That our effect on climate is not dangerous

by The Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, former policy adviser to Margaret Thatcher

Anyone want to bet me that Gore refuses to debate this? I've heard he's already been challenged to debates on similar subjects and refuses to debate them.

I wonder why. (nuts)

[Geof]

....Anyone want to bet me that Gore refuses to debate this? I've heard he's already been challenged to debates on similar subjects and refuses to debate them.

I wonder why. (nuts)

Probably because he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Or maybe this was a rhetorical question .

[Rekd]

Or maybe this was a rhetorical question .

[fizzissist]

Steve Milloy invited Gore....and at the top of his website is a running clock.
------------------------------------------

"Does Al Gore really believe in catastrophic global warming?"

"Since Al Gore was offered the opportunity (in person) to facilitate serious debate on the underlying science of global climate change, 1 year, 2 months, 2 weeks, 22 hours, 36 minutes, and 40 seconds have elapsed."

----------------------------------------------
That was as of March 19, 2007, 11:38am.

Gore hisself stated that he talks about global warming in lay terms....because that's what he understands.

[alexccmeister]

Well, there are always going to be two type of people. One that says global warming is happening and lets do something about it. And one that says no, its a load of bull and when it finally happens, oop! Lets do something about it. Which one would you prefer to be?

What's with this fixation on Al Gore? I bet people wouldn't have so much to argue about if the idea about global warming was highlighted further by say the POPE or someone at least everyone like.

I don't think the non supporters are really disagreeing about global warming. More with the fact that they don't like Al Gore. Am I right?

[Mark L. MN]

I have been hearing from both camps. And all to often the people screaming the loudest about global warming are the most rabid that only human activity is the sole cause and force. But I have been hearing that there maybe other forces at work here, that are possibly being considered properly. There is points of fact I have to keep remembering and pointing out. That the Sahara desert was not as big as it is now. That scientist have found evidence that the great plains were deserts several times in the past. Glaciers do grow and shrink over time. The poles haven't always been covered in ice.

There is much to concider and think about. Carefully, with out going over the edge with out proper reason.

[alexccmeister]

I have been hearing from both camps. And all to often the people screaming the loudest about global warming are the most rabid that only human activity is the sole cause and force. But I have been hearing that there maybe other forces at work here, that are possibly being considered properly. There is points of fact I have to keep remembering and pointing out. That the Sahara desert was not as big as it is now. That scientist have found evidence that the great plains were deserts several times in the past. Glaciers do grow and shrink over time. The poles haven't always been covered in ice.

There is much to concider and think about. Carefully, with out going over the edge with out proper reason.

I think by the time we finish pondering over this possible calamity, majority of the human race would be wiped out.

What you are saying is that since earth itself has a fair share of environmentally detrimental activities, we should just keep going on the way we did.

It may well be the earth cycling tru climate changes. But going the way we do isn't going to help at all.

As the saying goes, if you keep going in a straight line without changing direction, you will end up where you are headed. And I am pretty sure where we are headed.

[Madclicker]

Well, there are always going to be two type of people. One that says global warming is happening and lets do something about it. And one that says no, its a load of bull and when it finally happens, oop! Lets do something about it. Which one would you prefer to be?

I'll be a third kind of person that needs real proof that it's happening and that there's anything that can be done about it.

I don't think the non supporters are really disagreeing about global warming. More with the fact that they don't like Al Gore. Am I right?

I disagree that global warming is happening and I don't like Al Bore.

[Madclicker]

I think by the time we finish pondering over this possible calamity, majority of the human race would be wiped out.

What you are saying is that since earth itself has a fair share of environmentally detrimental activities, we should just keep going on the way we did.

It may well be the earth cycling tru climate changes. But going the way we do isn't going to help at all.

As the saying goes, if you keep going in a straight line without changing direction, you will end up where you are headed. And I am pretty sure where we are headed.

Get a grip, alex. The human race will be fine. Don't let the scare mongers scare you silly.

I can't believe they have people believing that micro-managing the small amount of CO2 that humans contribute will steer the global climate. Just amazes me how gullible the herd is.

[alexccmeister]

Get a grip, alex. The human race will be fine. Don't let the scare mongers scare you silly.

I can't believe they have people believing that micro-managing the small amount of CO2 that humans contribute will steer the global climate. Just amazes me how gullible the herd is.

Hi Madclicker,

I think you got me wrong from the way I posted. I may have sounded abit over dramatic. But you are right, I am concern about global warming and I do believe its happening. And I don't believe the use of fossil fuel the way we do is micro.

Try living in the equatorial region and you will feel the difference. The monsoon season has changed somewhat. And there are alot of other indications which I have to say people living in the northern hemisphere won't feel or know about simply because they are living in a cold country. I think by the time people in the north starts to feel the difference, the equatorial region may not be a comfortable place to live in. Imagine how many people will be affected?

[Caprirs]

Try living in the equatorial region and you will feel the difference. The monsoon season has changed somewhat.

Not trying to be a jerk, but is the weather the same every single year with no variation? How much does the weather change over the course of a few years? Or decades? Or centuries? How much variation is considered normal? Without knowing the data, it's very difficult to conclude that the current change is "bad".

Further, now that you have electricity, television, good hospitals, plenty of food, and clean water, you expect under-developed countries in Asia and Africa to be deprived of these basic necessities because they would contribute to global warming. Those countries will have to keep suffering the high mortality rates due to famine and disease because they will be barred from developing infrastructure and machinery to save lives.

[Rekd]

Well, there are always going to be two type of people. One that says global warming is happening and lets do something about it. And one that says no, its a load of bull and when it finally happens, oop! Lets do something about it. Which one would you prefer to be?

What's with this fixation on Al Gore? I bet people wouldn't have so much to argue about if the idea about global warming was highlighted further by say the POPE or someone at least everyone like.

I don't think the non supporters are really disagreeing about global warming. More with the fact that they don't like Al Gore. Am I right?

There are three types. The two that you said, and those (the majority?) like me that believe it IS happening, but are questioning the cause. Many (most?) don't believe it's humans being the bulk of the cause.

And we don't like al gore because he's a hypocrite and/or a fear mongering liar.

[Rekd]

Not trying to be a jerk, but is the weather the same every single year with no variation? How much does the weather change over the course of a few years? Or decades? Or centuries? How much variation is considered normal? Without knowing the data, it's very difficult to conclude that the current change is "bad".

I think I heard on TV last week while playing trucks and drinking my sippy-cup that in the last 10 or so years there hasn't been an increase in the mean temps globally.

How interesting.

I'll have to look it up and see for sure, but I'm fairly certain that's what they said.

[alexccmeister]

Not trying to be a jerk, but is the weather the same every single year with no variation? How much does the weather change over the course of a few years? Or decades? Or centuries? How much variation is considered normal? Without knowing the data, it's very difficult to conclude that the current change is "bad".

Granted, there isn't much data to support the case. Prior to 10 or so years ago, the weather used to be regular and on the dot. July month was never as hot as it is now. We used to get rain every afternoon. Which is typical of countries in this region. But we hardly get them anymore. When it rains its heavy and when its dry its bone dry. Unless I am imagining it, something is definitely going on.

Further, now that you have electricity, television, good hospitals, plenty of food, and clean water, you expect under-developed countries in Asia and Africa to be deprived of these basic necessities because they would contribute to global warming. Those countries will have to keep suffering the high mortality rates due to famine and disease because they will be barred from developing infrastructure and machinery to save lives.

Sorry, how did you come to that conclusion from what I wrote?

[Geof]

Granted, there isn't much data to support the case. Prior to 10 or so years ago, the weather used to be regular and on the dot. July month was never as hot as it is now. We used to get rain every afternoon. Which is typical of countries in this region. But we hardly get them anymore. When it rains its heavy and when its dry its bone dry. Unless I am imagining it, something is definitely going on...

I had to go searching to find Brunei; all I had in my mind was that it was/is located somewhere in the general area of Indonesia. Good job I am not a navigator on an airplane .

Your personal observations over ten years may or may not be valid; I know mine are not. The big hills behind the house I grew up in have shrunk over the years and the snowfalls that used to come up to my waist now barely get past my knees. And I am not making fun; human memories form a very unsteady baseline for comparison.

If you could find weather records that did show the same changes; hotter summer months and more variable rainfall then I can accept that your memories are accurate. But it still may not mean anything; weather patterns change often in a cyclic fashion and ten years may be a miniscule time period for some changes.

Perhaps in your region weather has remained stable for centuries; I think that is not likely but it is possible and there is a way to find out.

Trees grow for a long time and they lay down a growth ring, or sometimes two, for every year. These rings are a record of what the weather was like during the year in which they grew. If you can find a tree stump in your area that shows growth rings which are completely identical from ten years ago all the way to the first ten years of the tree's growth and spanning a period of two or three hundred years in total, then I am inclined to accept that weather in your area has been unusually constant and the recent changes you feel you observe are real.

I am fairly confident you will not find a perfectly constant pattern; at a minimum you should find variations after 1815 and again after 1883 and these variations should smooth out in each case after a few years.

[alexccmeister]

Hi Geof,

Brunei's a tiny country so I can't blame you for not being able to find it.

Anyway, did you ever figure out what the reason might be for your experience regarding the snow behind your house? Or has the snow depth returned to normal?

[Geof]

Hi Geof,

Brunei's a tiny country so I can't blame you for not being able to find it.

Anyway, did you ever figure out what the reason might be for your experience regarding the snow behind your house? Or has the snow depth returned to normal?

Notice the way I phrased it:"...snowfalls that used to come up to my waist now barely get past my knees...."

The reason personal remembrances are not a valid basis for comparison is that the baseline shifts; people grow, so what seemed like big hills and lots of snow to a younger and smaller me no longer seems the same from a different and taller perspective.

Which is why I made the comment about not making fun; memory is very fallible. This is why it is necessary to have a definitive record from weather observations or to look at natural records such as tree rings.

Weather can cycle dramatically over a few years or tens of years. El Nino events are something that can influence rainfall patterns even in your area. Approximately ten years ago there was a strong El Nino fluctuation so it is not particularly surprising if weather patterns in many parts of the earth are different now to what they were ten years ago.

[gus]

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/

some info on global temperature

[alexccmeister]

I get you now. But I am not sure if they would be the same case as what I have experience. I had an opportunity one time to visit my old school just recently and I was commenting to my friends how small the place felt when compared to the last time we were there studying.

But the weather doesn't just change by virtue of us growing up. In any case, the fact of the matter is that global warming whether it is natural or man made (and I believe we play a major role in this) is happening. It is prudent to think about how we can improve the situation where it is possible. That is if everyone works together. But then its only me talking, just a small ant in a big world.

[alexccmeister]

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/

some info on global temperature

Interesting read.

With all the changes the Earth has experienced over its history, one might think one more change is no big deal. In the long run, yes. But the future of humanity depends crucially on what happens in the "short run": the next millennium or two. If we didn't mess around with the climate, our Earth's climate might remain stable for another thousand years or more. As it is, we're bringing on more sudden changes.

This is an extract from the article written by John Baez, the link above. Enuf said.