[VSO]

Hi,
I was looking for a good looking but reasonable priced cnc sliding headstock machine over the web and i found one, 1996 Citizen M20 with Mitsubishi Meldas control unit exc. bar-feeder. I have cam type sliding headstock lathes and two Hanwha Cnc sliding headstock lathes - XD12H and XD20H-.

Now the question is;
Is it sensible to buy this kind of second hand machine? What should i check before purchasing the machine? What are the critical problems of a Citizen M20? And would it be better than the Hanwhas even the one made in 1996?? What you guys advise me do you recommend a 1996 Citizen? I have never experienced Citizens.. As far as i heard Citizen is one of the best machines with Tsugami and Star. Thanks.

[VSO]

Anyone using M20?

[cogsman1]

The M20 is still an excellent machine! I have run them for many years and unless the machine has been very abused, it will serve you well. You can also get FREE training from Citizen for as long as you own the machine!

Marubeni Citizen-Cincom, Inc.

Yes, I work for Citizen! I work for them because of the GREAT support they always gave me when I was just a customer.

[SirDenisNayland]

The M20 is still an excellent machine! I have run them for many years and unless the machine has been very abused, it will serve you well. You can also get FREE training from Citizen for as long as you own the machine!

Marubeni Citizen-Cincom, Inc.

Yes, I work for Citizen! I work for them because of the GREAT support they always gave me when I was just a customer.

I always thought the free training was only if you purchased the machine brand new, from one of their distributors..

I can't imagine them handing out a week of free training each time a machine changes hands, feel free to correct me though.

Also having been to their training courses ill say that they are really more of an intro to swiss crash course than an in depth machine specific course. Yes they have m and g code specifics in the pamphlets and books they give you but there isn't really much in the way of learning niche things for particular machines. Any complex techniques boiled down to buy wincnc and it'll do it for you. Not to knock them or anything, it just wasn't what I had had in mind when I went. They didn't even have the machine on the floor and the instructor really wasn't all that familiar with the machine at all.

[cogsman1]

YES, you are welcome to the FREE training even if you bought an old, used machine.
The classes are held in ALL the MCC offices on a yearly schedule. These have been offered for most of 20 years.
The content is much more than a "Basic" swiss information class, although that is the beginning of the class to make sure the "NEW" swiss people have an understanding of how the machine works.
This covers tool setting, programming most common features on a part while explaining how to arrive at the needed values.
Granted it is only the beginning of the total knowledge that will be needed, but that never ends!
We are a "SALES" company, so on occasion, the machine intended for the class either does not arrive or gets sold and we have to hold the class without the exact machine the class is about, but that is not often.

[VSO]

Ok, i do not really think that Citizen's Turkish importer would give free training for a foreign country imported second hand machine... Otherwise the training stuff.. I can run the machine well, I am not new to the Swiss machines but i have not used a Citizen, yet. What about the stuff to look at and to check before buying the machine? Of course i do not mean ball bearings, guideways etc.. just like critical electronics or mechanic problems.. as far as i know, old Citizens needing a tool presetter for setting up the machine - sound critical to me -.. Does M20 need tool presetter, too?

[cogsman1]

To set the tools off line, yes you would need a pre-setter. The tools can be set o the machine but for the turret you would need to use MDI.
You could set a tool ON the machine and then remove it and make your own "set-block" to use with a comparator. The Gang tooling gets set using the tool-setting features of the control and touching off of the stock.

[VSO]

Thanks everyone answered, we pushed harder a little and we bought a brand new Hanwha swiss lathe rather than buying a used M20.

[AJDK]

Hi Cogsman, do you currently still use Citizen CINCOM M20 machines ?
I have recently had a CPU problem on mine and have since got it up and running again, but the problem I have is that the TOOL SET option on the PREPERATION screen is not avalable - I need to know what to do to get it showing on the screen so that I can set the tool heights and centers.

Can you assist me ?

Thanks
Alan De Klerk
South Africa

[jamessiffel]

I thought you went with a Hanwha? What happened?