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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > Trying to decide between a Tormach PCNC 770, 1100, Mikini 1610L and Syil
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
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    Trying to decide between a Tormach PCNC 770, 1100, Mikini 1610L and Syil

    This machine will be used for a small electronics company doing prototyping and R&D. Mainly it will be used for making electronics enclosures out of plastic and aluminum, but will also be used for other R&D projects.

    We use SolidWorks as our CAD system and I am also looking for suggestions on the CAM software. I have some experience with Gibbs, but am mainly wondering if SprutCAM is worth it.

    I am currently leaning towards the PCNC 770 for the higher spindle speeds. We have 220 power available though, so I am not leaning towards the PCNC 770 for power or space reasons.

    Budget is a factor as we are trying to stay around $15,000.

    I also had a question about using the 4th axis, as we will probably spring for this option. I have never utilized a 4th axis and wonder about the learning curve of programming for it.

    Any input from you guys is greatly appreciated, and as I said before, I am currently leaning towards the PCNC 770. The greatest benefit from the Mikini is that it is fully enclosed and the HP bump.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063
    I wouldn't put the Syil in the same class as the other two, for reasons of support. Visit the Syil forum here, and see how many support issues there are. Basically, it appears you buy the machine, pray that it works when you get it, and if not, struggle to get any meaningful support. Sadly, Mikini is likely in almost the same boat. A year or so back, I seriously considered a Mikini, as they're located just a few miles from my home. But after seeing some of the problems, particularly spindle issues, people have had, I'd have pretty serious second thoughts at this point. I've seen remarkably few problems with Tormach machines that were not addressed very quickly by Tormach.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    592

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by HimyKabibble View Post
    I wouldn't put the Syil in the same class as the other two, for reasons of support. Visit the Syil forum here, and see how many support issues there are. Basically, it appears you buy the machine, pray that it works when you get it, and if not, struggle to get any meaningful support. Sadly, Mikini is likely in almost the same boat. A year or so back, I seriously considered a Mikini, as they're located just a few miles from my home. But after seeing some of the problems, particularly spindle issues, people have had, I'd have pretty serious second thoughts at this point. I've seen remarkably few problems with Tormach machines that were not addressed very quickly by Tormach.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    This addresses the biggest problem for machine tool owners. Warranty, Support and being able to enforce the warranty when there really is a problem. With price scale back that is seen with smaller "Hobby and limited business" machines so suffers warranty support.

    A person such as myself can fix almost any issue on a machine I own. The question quickly becomes - how much down time can you endure. When you choose a machine you need to have contingency plans for repair or second sourcing.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    269
    You can always add the 4th axis in the future (Tormach), for only a slight shipping cost increase over ordering it now with the rest of your gear. Just a thought: PDB and ATC would be used on just about every job. Their website is very user friendly, listing all kinds of tooling and machine parts. Spend some time to see a Tormach actually running. When I did, my Tormach 1100 chose me.

    Jim

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1041
    You'll be more than satisfied with the Tormach. They always pick up the phone and help no matter if you're an old or new customer. Very professional with a family business feel. Plus you got all of us

    If speeds what you're after, you could always get a speeder and still have the power of the 1100. You'll lose a little Z, but will always have the extra power when needed.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    595
    Quote Originally Posted by twocik View Post
    You'll be more than satisfied with the Tormach. They always pick up the phone and help no matter if you're an old or new customer. Very professional with a family business feel. Plus you got all of us

    If speeds what you're after, you could always get a speeder and still have the power of the 1100. You'll lose a little Z, but will always have the extra power when needed.
    100% agree. Tormach is first class. Owned my 1100 for ~5 years. Would buy again in a heartbeat !

    David

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    154
    I had the same questions a couple of years ago. I liked the Mikini but it was too big for the room I had at the time. There is someone on the site who has a mikini and a Tormach 1100 and he liked both I believe (Howec was his name, I think)
    Syil used to be shaddy in my opinion. I think they improved a lot and have nice machines. They need a real reseller in the US who can provide support. I was seriously considering the X5 at some point but decided against because of the lack of support. Same with novakon.
    I went for the 770 and do't regret it. Tormach has a good reputation and they have something to lose if something goes wrong with your purchase. They are very polished machine for "cheap" Chinese ones. Tormach constantly improve the design of their machine, they have their own version of MAch tuned up for their machines and accessories.
    I remember looking at the electronic cabinet of my 770 and thinking "this is nice!". Then I saw a picture of the novakon cabinet and thought that no serious company would leave the electronic so messy. It does not take so much more time to do things right, so when someone does not it usually says a lot about what you can expect elsewhere.

    This being said, Tormach machines are not perfect. I had a problem with the controler software in my first weeks and the machine kept losing steps (badly). But I called them and they told me to download the need configuration file for the 770 and all problems went away. Something like that would be a hassle to fix with less reputable companies.

    Long story short, Tormach is a great bet! Nice machine and nice support.
    Christian

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
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    0
    Thanks for all the advice. I think I am going to go with a Tormach.

    Does anybody have any recommendations on the 770 vs the 1100 for the applications I have specified? Any one have any recommendations on SprutCAM and programming the 4th axis?

    Thanks again guys.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    605
    ^^^ If you use Solidworks then download HSMworks free 2.5D version, HSMXpress. It is amazing. Only problem is that you will find it so fantastic you will want the full version for your 3D and 4th axis work. And it commands real CAM software prices.

    After playing around with cheap CAM software, I found I had no tolerance for it. I like the Solidworks integrated stuff. HSMWorks, and SolidCAM were my favorites.
    PM-45 CNC conversion built/run/sold.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063
    Quote Originally Posted by p3t3rbuilt View Post
    Thanks for all the advice. I think I am going to go with a Tormach.

    Does anybody have any recommendations on the 770 vs the 1100 for the applications I have specified? Any one have any recommendations on SprutCAM and programming the 4th axis?

    Thanks again guys.
    The work envelope on the PCNC 1100 is just big enough in X to work with 19" rack panels, so that might be something to consider if you work on such things. If you work on enclosures (like Hoffman) you might also want to consider the Z travel on both mills. Drill bits can eat up Z in a hurry.

    Mike

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    316
    Quote Originally Posted by concombrefrais View Post
    I had the same questions a couple of years ago. I liked the Mikini but it was too big for the room I had at the time. There is someone on the site who has a mikini and a Tormach 1100 and he liked both I believe (Howec was his name, I think)
    Syil used to be shaddy in my opinion. I think they improved a lot and have nice machines. They need a real reseller in the US who can provide support. I was seriously considering the X5 at some point but decided against because of the lack of support. Same with novakon.
    I went for the 770 and do't regret it. Tormach has a good reputation and they have something to lose if something goes wrong with your purchase. They are very polished machine for "cheap" Chinese ones. Tormach constantly improve the design of their machine, they have their own version of MAch tuned up for their machines and accessories.
    I remember looking at the electronic cabinet of my 770 and thinking "this is nice!". Then I saw a picture of the novakon cabinet and thought that no serious company would leave the electronic so messy. It does not take so much more time to do things right, so when someone does not it usually says a lot about what you can expect elsewhere.

    This being said, Tormach machines are not perfect. I had a problem with the controler software in my first weeks and the machine kept losing steps (badly). But I called them and they told me to download the need configuration file for the 770 and all problems went away. Something like that would be a hassle to fix with less reputable companies.

    Long story short, Tormach is a great bet! Nice machine and nice support.
    Christian
    concombrefrais

    I would not normally comment on another manufactures product on this forum but I do think a clarification is required. I realize your comments are based on old info and I feel its only fair to update them.

    1. I was seriously considering the X5 at some point but decided against because of the lack of support. Same with novakon.

    I have followed many of the manufactures threads and it appears that Novakon's support has vastly improved in the recent past.

    2. Then I saw a picture of the novakon cabinet and thought that no serious company would leave the electronic so messy. It does not take so much more time to do things right, so when someone does not it usually says a lot about what you can expect elsewhere.

    Please see the attached photo copied from their web site of their newest controller. I believe you will agree that it couldn't be neater.

    John
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Torus Pro Cabinet Series 3.jpg  

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    2512
    It is tidy but I wouldn't say that it couldn't be neater!

    Phil

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMachining View Post
    Please see the attached photo copied from their web site of their newest controller. I believe you will agree that it couldn't be neater.
    John

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    789
    Unprotected transformer windings! It still looks like a clean hobby project.
    Sorry, I'm probably not being productive here. Ignore me.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    1863
    Quote Originally Posted by p3t3rbuilt View Post
    This machine will be used for a small electronics company doing prototyping and R&D. Mainly it will be used for making electronics enclosures out of plastic and aluminum, but will also be used for other R&D projects.

    We use SolidWorks as our CAD system and I am also looking for suggestions on the CAM software. I have some experience with Gibbs, but am mainly wondering if SprutCAM is worth it.

    I am currently leaning towards the PCNC 770 for the higher spindle speeds. We have 220 power available though, so I am not leaning towards the PCNC 770 for power or space reasons.

    Budget is a factor as we are trying to stay around $15,000.

    I also had a question about using the 4th axis, as we will probably spring for this option. I have never utilized a 4th axis and wonder about the learning curve of programming for it.

    Any input from you guys is greatly appreciated, and as I said before, I am currently leaning towards the PCNC 770. The greatest benefit from the Mikini is that it is fully enclosed and the HP bump.
    I bought my 1100 in July 2011 and heve never looked back. As a former shop owner, I used GibbsCam, and if you really do have Gibbs experience, stay with it.

    At today's prices, if you equip yours the way I did mine, you're going to be closer to $17,000.00. After being a shop owner, I bought only the tool holders I thought I needed, and so far, it had worked out really well. There have been a few times when I have wished I had bought some more set screw tool holders, but for the most part, I have been extremely happy and satisfied.

    If you'll PM an e-mail address, I'll send you a copy of my invoice so you can see exactly what I bought. You have to remember though, mine is a series II. I got it about a month before the series III's came out and the price went up $1,000.00.

    I had a FADAL and a Haas in my shop, and this machine will do everything they would do, it just takes a little longer. My FADAL and my Haas both had 20 HP, and my Tormach has 1.5. I could run a 3/4 inch end mill in those and with my Tormach, I seldom use larger than a 5/16.

    Knowing what I know now about the Tormach, their product their tech support and their service would I buy another one? In a New York second.

    I considered the Syil and the Makini, and after I have read the horror stories about them, I am really happy I only considered them.
    You can buy GOOD PARTS or you can buy CHEAP PARTS, but you can't buy GOOD CHEAP PARTS.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by p3t3rbuilt View Post
    Any one have any recommendations on SprutCAM and programming the 4th axis?

    Thanks again guys.
    I found Sprutcam to be very painful to use. Based on other's experience, it will get the job done, but plan on spending a lot of time fighting the software. If you have experience with a high end CAM package, I think you will find SC to be lacking.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    154
    Thanks John for correcting me.
    It does look better that what I remember, they probably improved it. This being said the 770 still has a much more professional looking electronic (I don't have a picture handy, sorry).

    Good to hear that the competition is stepping up. Everyone will gain from it.
    Chrsitian

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMachining View Post
    concombrefrais

    I would not normally comment on another manufactures product on this forum but I do think a clarification is required. I realize your comments are based on old info and I feel its only fair to update them.

    1. I was seriously considering the X5 at some point but decided against because of the lack of support. Same with novakon.

    I have followed many of the manufactures threads and it appears that Novakon's support has vastly improved in the recent past.

    2. Then I saw a picture of the novakon cabinet and thought that no serious company would leave the electronic so messy. It does not take so much more time to do things right, so when someone does not it usually says a lot about what you can expect elsewhere.

    Please see the attached photo copied from their web site of their newest controller. I believe you will agree that it couldn't be neater.

    John

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    117
    I'm a newborn machinist , about 2 months , I have a shopmaster Patroit , and just bought a 1100 , no problems with the shopmaster except it's SLOW , we are now running the same parts with the 1100 , 4, yes FOUR times faster.

    Oh, and gave up on Sprutcam , when it worked it wasn't bad , but after having to uninstall/intsall it 10 times in one day, from "Sprutcam has experianced a catastrophic faliure and needs to close" messages. Then it wouldn't start again.

    This was a free trial version , but . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I try and make triple sure sample part is PERFECT , I would expect they would do the same with software.

    Anyway , I would reccomend the Tormach,the only nitpicks I have is many of the small screw holes are stripped out , 2 on the strainer screen , every one on the covers that you remove to run the cables through. They're not falling out ,but I had to remove them with pliers, they just spin in the hole, won't backout.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1863
    Quote Originally Posted by toothandnail View Post
    Anyway , I would reccomend the Tormach,the only nitpicks I have is many of the small screw holes are stripped out , 2 on the strainer screen , every one on the covers that you remove to run the cables through. They're not falling out ,but I had to remove them with pliers, they just spin in the hole, won't backout.
    Are you sure the screws are the right size for the holes in the machine?

    It doesn't stand to reason that ALL if the screws would be stripped.
    You can buy GOOD PARTS or you can buy CHEAP PARTS, but you can't buy GOOD CHEAP PARTS.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    477
    I received my machine about 15 months ago and "some" of the cover screws on the back of the electrical cabinet covering the plug connections were strippped as well.

    nitewatchman

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    714
    I have a Chinese lathe and bandsaw bought 30 years ago, I wondered then if they didnt have the correct taps for the holes, my Tormach had a few sloppy screw threads as well on the machine and the setscrew holders.
    mike sr

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