[dave3431]

We have been retrofitting machines for a few years and have been building custom operator panels for some of our recent projects.
The question on my mind is, could there be a market for a product like this.
I would also welcome opinions and perception of of what we have built so far.
If it is marketable, what would you pay for an operator panel.

Dave

[LGSM3]

looks great

Ever built one for mach? ballpark pricing for one similar to the last picture?

[jsearles]

It's impossible to answer your question without an idea of price. Example, the Super PIDs is a dazzlingly effective tool and I am about to buy my second one. The sellers could have priced it above $350.00 and I wouldn't have bought the first one. But considering that I can acquire one for under $200, it makes incredible sense.

Now,....I need to build a panel for MACH3 or I may buy the handheld on eBay for $23.00 (monitors are dirt cheap). The thing that would make we swing toward the panel is touchscreen. But I will still probably buy the handheld as a first step.

This is provided only as perspective as you make your decision.

[Al_The_Man]

I have been building my own panels for some years and prefer the reverse engraved lamacoid for durability and looks.
I also build my PC systems as Panel-PC's with touch screen, similar to a Point of Sale terminal.
I am looking at building one for resale with a closed loop Dsp controller instead of the P.P. Mach type.
Al.

[dwalsh62]

We have been retrofitting machines for a few years and have been building custom operator panels for some of our recent projects.
The question on my mind is, could there be a market for a product like this.
I would also welcome opinions and perception of of what we have built so far.
If it is marketable, what would you pay for an operator panel.

Dave

As pretty as it is, it still looks like a windows or linux environment running some kind of software.

Since I can purchase a real 5-axis CNC panels for less than $1,000.00 it makes it hard to consider other hardware when you have to tally all the hardware up to get a real price comparison.

Panels will work open or closed loop, using encoders or glass scales, pretty much any measuring/counting device that outputs A/B/Z signals, is entirely stand alone and self contained (not like the older systems) so unless it's complete and dirt cheap, the budget oriented wont consider it.

I went the route of making a cheap panel, stirred up a hornets nest, got a buyout and dealership for GSK panels giving me outrageous prices so the experience wasn't a complete waste of time.

[Lasersolution]

We have been retrofitting machines for a few years and have been building custom operator panels for some of our recent projects.
The question on my mind is, could there be a market for a product like this.
I would also welcome opinions and perception of of what we have built so far.
If it is marketable, what would you pay for an operator panel.

Dave

In fact, If you purchase the machine, the factory will make some change at the basis of the common machine, such as your panel. But the customers will make some change after the purchase. It is hard to say whether there are market for your machine and design, but If you product can give the machines good Convenience, I think there will be a markets.

[dave3431]

dwalsh62,

I met the GSK folks at IMTS, their controls look good, how many retrofits have you done with GSK hardware.

[dave3431]

It seems from post's here and my experience this far, that the market for an operator panel is small, and for one off custom for industrial users, which is the market we are presently in.
We have not made a panel for mach3, I'm pretty sure we don't want to compete on price for the hobby market, but perhaps supplying just the enclosure with front panel (or just front panel) for the user to insert their own buttons, hand wheels and monitors may be viable.

[larryy1022]

We have been retrofitting machines for a few years and have been building custom operator panels for some of our recent projects.
The question on my mind is, could there be a market for a product like this.
I would also welcome opinions and perception of of what we have built so far.
If it is marketable, what would you pay for an operator panel.

Dave

Looks pretty nice, you want to sell to DIY user, or retrofit Company like you, or big machine manufacturer?
You can not meet all customers' request.
It is definitely sellable if you target on right customers. I can tell you that because we made it before...haha
Good luck!

[dwalsh62]

dwalsh62,

I met the GSK folks at IMTS, their controls look good, how many retrofits have you done with GSK hardware.

I would say I've personally done about 25 retrofits and and 60 conversions and this does not include all the retrofit's and conversions done by the Servo Products business, getting them at manufacturer prices makes it very affordable and the controls are (as you saw) very well designed.

It is not my intentions to trade on the Servo Products Co., LTD name and everything I do for the hobby community is to make the products available to the end-user at an affordable (actual) cost without profit, commercial sales are all handled by the business as I turn it away, I'm not here to make the rich richer.

I personally negotiated the deal with GSK over my personal designed CNC panel buy-out so it would only hurt their business if I kill the contract and they clearly wont be able to negotiate the same pricing as I received due to my CNC panel buy-out so reprimanding me for cost sales isn't in their best interest.

[ihavenofish]

it depends on your target market.

mach3 is universal and flexible, easy to use, easy to support, and easy to get support. i can come all in with a pc for under $300, or ou can flesh it out for several grand.

its NOT remotely the best system out there, but its a no brainer for hobby builds.

so when you try to target a control panel to this low cost hobby market, you are starting at the bottom of a big mountain. panels like the gsk are interesting, but the retail price (1500-3000 typically) is hard to justify, when it appears on the surface to have no obvious benifits over mach3, and no online users to guide you along the way.

the next jump up is something like an accurite 3500i made by heidenhain. these guys have support, and a reputation, and the control itself has very obvious and genuine advantages over mach3. trouble is, the retail price of the panel alone is more money than most hobby level conversion mills, and with a full on kit with wiring, small ac servos and drives, and accessories, youve broken 10k handily. this is a control after all that would boost the performance of a hass, so its on a very different level.

so the under 10k crowd, thats a mach3 solution crowd. the over 10k crowd, thats a group that needs work done, and will pay for a real solution.

i do think though that the 1st person to make an all in mini panel control thats as flexible, and genuinely better than mach3 for under a grand is going to be very rich.

with the current cost of tablets, sub notebooks, and prototyped circuits... i dont think this is far away either.

[dwalsh62]

it depends on your target market.

mach3 is universal and flexible, easy to use, easy to support, and easy to get support. i can come all in with a pc for under $300, or ou can flesh it out for several grand.

its NOT remotely the best system out there, but its a no brainer for hobby builds.

so when you try to target a control panel to this low cost hobby market, you are starting at the bottom of a big mountain. panels like the gsk are interesting, but the retail price (1500-3000 typically) is hard to justify, when it appears on the surface to have no obvious benifits over mach3, and no online users to guide you along the way.

the next jump up is something like an accurite 3500i made by heidenhain. these guys have support, and a reputation, and the control itself has very obvious and genuine advantages over mach3. trouble is, the retail price of the panel alone is more money than most hobby level conversion mills, and with a full on kit with wiring, small ac servos and drives, and accessories, youve broken 10k handily. this is a control after all that would boost the performance of a hass, so its on a very different level.

so the under 10k crowd, thats a mach3 solution crowd. the over 10k crowd, thats a group that needs work done, and will pay for a real solution.

i do think though that the 1st person to make an all in mini panel control thats as flexible, and genuinely better than mach3 for under a grand is going to be very rich.

with the current cost of tablets, sub notebooks, and prototyped circuits... i dont think this is far away either.

Wait a minute, you obviously didn't think this through in any logical manner or common sense when you made this statement.

For example, you say $1500.00 to $3,000.00 for a panel without the cabinet and auxiliary panel, this is retail pricing and does not include shipping. my price is $1,000.00 shipped and includes all the extras like the cabinet and auxiliary panel.

You also can't compare a GSK panel to a computer and Mach3 if you don't include the additional required components, the GSK panel wires to any step/direction driver, can run in open or closed loop and can control any type of spindle (on/off, FWD/REV, fast/slow) without the need for additional hardware or interfaces and your computer/Mach3 can't so your statement isn't really valid.

To elaborate, your conception that Mach3 and a computer for $300.00 isn't a reasonable statement since Mach3 and a computer isn't a complete motion control system if you don't include the additional hardware (LCD, Windows OS, breakout board, PWM board, power supply, additional switches for the auxiliary panel) required to make them the same (or minimally the same) functionality and, Mach3 will never be a closed loop system despite what anyone else tells you to convince you it is because it just isn't so.

Mach3 can emulate a closed loop environment and that's as close as it gets, a $1,000.00 GSK panel will outperform Mach3 any day of the week and is pretty much plug and play where your computer and Mach3 is not.

New computers don't have parallel ports so USB controllers are required and these start at $125.00 (the leafboy card is decent enough) and some like SmoothStepper are just problematic and barely suitable, the JNC40 is another decent card but has issues with port designation because it wasn't originally intended for Mach3 and this doesn't include the plethora of other cards that people buy only later to find out they don't work with Mach3 at all.

Yes, we've all heard stories about the guy who made a USB to parallel converter out of spare parts but this is a guy with skills that most don't have despite what they believe and they also don't see the hidden costs of making the board or the equipment required to assemble the board after it's made.

GSK panels are commercial grade equipment, your computer and Mach3 is nothing more than consumer electronics and not built to the same ruggedness.

A computer w/keybd, LCD display, Window OS, Mach3, breakout board, power supply, auxiliary panel and switches, mounting box cost a lot more than $300.00 unless you steal the Windows OS and use antiquated equipment and parts you've had laying around for the last 10 years.

If you wish to make a comparison it would be nice if it was at the very least realistic.

Further information, a CNC control panel now exists that is less than $500.00 however the manufacturer refuses to offer an english language version unless we buy 1,000pcs and he doesn't see the benefits in potential increased sales by making an english version available but I am slowly chipping away at him.

[ihavenofish]

mach3 is $169. a suitible computer can be had for under $100 with a windows lic, if not free. crt monitors are free and plentiful. most machines have paralell ports, and if they dont, a $15 pci-e card remedies that.

break out boards with pwm spindle control are inexpensive, about $30-120 or included in a gecko g540 module suitible for smaller machines.


as far as "performance", mach3 rivals and beats almost anything you can get on a machine under 100k. it lacks some fancy features, and has the odd bug (some being important) that will be worked out. but on pure performace, its very very good. people running a lower spec haas can only dream of the contouring abilities included in mach3.

mach isnt of course closed loop, but neither are any of the chinese controls ive looked at. they all let the drives close the loops.

you can centainly spend alot on a mach3 system if you want, but you dont have to. and thats the point.

with the gsk and others like it, you have a system that *might* be as good, *might* even be better, is almost definitely less flexible, for a good bit more money. thats why it wont sell well over here to individuals. spec and support them for turnkey oem builders like novakon, tormach, xzero etc, and then its a different ballgame.

[dwalsh62]

mach3 is $169. a suitible computer can be had for under $100 with a windows lic, if not free. crt monitors are free and plentiful. most machines have paralell ports, and if they dont, a $15 pci-e card remedies that.

break out boards with pwm spindle control are inexpensive, about $30-120 or included in a gecko g540 module suitible for smaller machines.


as far as "performance", mach3 rivals and beats almost anything you can get on a machine under 100k. it lacks some fancy features, and has the odd bug (some being important) that will be worked out. but on pure performace, its very very good. people running a lower spec haas can only dream of the contouring abilities included in mach3.

mach isnt of course closed loop, but neither are any of the chinese controls ive looked at. they all let the drives close the loops.

you can centainly spend alot on a mach3 system if you want, but you dont have to. and thats the point.

with the gsk and others like it, you have a system that *might* be as good, *might* even be better, is almost definitely less flexible, for a good bit more money. thats why it wont sell well over here to individuals. spec and support them for turnkey oem builders like novakon, tormach, xzero etc, and then its a different ballgame.

That's like saying Fagor's Unix based (EMCII) controller and computer for $11,000.00 is a good buy.

HAAS makes good iron and for the last 10 years has banked on their name so comparing their low-end stuff as viable solutions is pointless.

How is Mach3 more flexible than a GSK panel??? (this I gotta hear)

I've checked all 9 computers in the house, none of the dual quad core E5650 Xeon CPU boards or X58's with W3580 Xeon's have one, none of the laptops have one, only found a prehistoric Dell with a P4 and parallel port in the kids room.

So, you can buy a computer with keyboard, a CRT with windows installed for $100.00 and you get the COA and Windows disk and everything is legit, you have a real bargain source but the CRT makes your enclosure bulky and heavy, an acceptable financial trade off I guess.

The g540 is $300.00 and Mach3 is $169.00, now your around $569.00 with your computer and CRT and still haven't included shipping, the power supply, switches or cabinet to put these all in and the GSK-980MDa cost is $870.00 plus shipping and the difference with the missing stuff is only $201.00 plus shipping so it's not that much of a price difference any more and this is what I've been trying to point out.

Unfortunately you and others make unrealistic price comparison when you don't consider everything required in your partial hardware/software comparison.

To make a swivel cabinet with the auxillary switches, the second parallel port and additional parts required to make a controller capable of ATC and you've far exceeded the cost of the GSK panel and, as far as I know, you can't use 2 USB controllers so your stuck with outdated/slow legacy equipment so tell me how it is cheaper and more flexible to run Mach3 than a GSK panel for anything more than a 3-axis mini-engraver/mini-router using the bare minimum hardware?

[ihavenofish]

Unfortunately you and others make unrealistic price comparison when you don't consider everything required in your partial hardware/software comparison.

cost of my machine control:

computer - $0. thats an intel core 2 duo, 8gb ram, built in paralel port, 1tb hard drive, lian li aluminium chassis, ati 3870 graphics card.

monitor - $0. lg 17" flatron crt.

break out board - $30 or $40 (forget). chinese 4 axis with pwm spindle control.

mach3 - $159.

wiring - $25 at the electronics surplus store.

total costs involved, $189. nothing has shipping, everything sources local, software is online delivery. probably $8-$20 in tax in there, i forget if mach3 had tax.


thats the realistic price of what i can get... AND go get again. my shop throws away a half dozen perfectly working 3-4 year old animation workstations a year. ive got a second one under my desk for something else.

but now, we have an issue with yours. 1st, you mention $1000. now its $870. make up your mind. but which model was that? 980mda?

the price i can find is $1950. you claim to offer a 50% discount, but, to be blunt, dont know anyone whos bought from you, and with a panel like that, i need guaranteed technical support.

the panel says 3 axis coordinate, 5 axis controlled. that makes it useless for alot of gantry routers, and limited, though not useless for a 4 or 5 axis mill. of course if you go to gsk's site and read the spec, it says its a 3 axis, with only 2 simultaneous. right off the bat, the specs and info arent right, so its ruled out completely for most people interested. if that latter spec is true, its a 2.5d control, and noone will want it.

the max feed rate is listed at 7.6m/min. thats 300ipm. thats utterly useless for anything but a low end mill - owners of which wouldnt be interested in anyway.

then we start getting into the more serious issues. 40k program storage. thats a thousand or so lines. so this thing isnt going to contour unless its got drip feed dnc. that means you need another computer next to it.

and thats about all i can find. no pdf, no g code and m code list, zip.

now, there are higher end gsk controls, for $3000 you get the 983 which claims 4 axis coordinated, and much faster speed. unfortunately many of the same problems with conflicting and incomplete info on the site, and the price edges is closer to some significantly better solutions.

[ihavenofish]

found a different spec on a different site. slightly more promissing, but still far behind the featureset of mach3. wonder if its actually correct.

3 axil linear coordinated, plus 4th and 5th non coordinated. not 3+2 functionality as far as i can tell, so 4 axis cutting is just indexing. doesnt mention slaving the 4th for a gantry.

24-60m/min rapid speeds. thats fast enough for any mill, and most gantries.
linear acelleration, so same as mach, with the same end issues... jerky high speed motions.
but no mention of cycle times, so no idea if it can contoure at a reasonable pace.

40 meg memory, so you still need dnc for big programs.

vfd spindle control, with rigid tap.

aaaaand, thats it.


so its still sub par to mach for many applications, and provides so little info that i still have no idea what it actually supports gcode wise, program length, tool tables, ATC, etc.

[dwalsh62]

cost of my machine control:

computer - $0. thats an intel core 2 duo, 8gb ram, built in paralel port, 1tb hard drive, lian li aluminium chassis, ati 3870 graphics card.

$0.00 send me 10 please.

Obviously it wasn't $0.00 but in your particular circumstance it may be true, hell, Lian-Li cases start at $90.00 and even on the used market, your listed hardware is still $400.00 to $600.00 so, because you enjoy the benefits of someone else's extravagant throw-away's, unless you willing to give them for free to anyone who wants one your claim is only valid for and applies to only you.

Your blanket statement implies that everyone can make a panel by spending only $300.00 or less for a computer and Mach3 and that nothing else is required and this is inaccurate.

monitor - $0. lg 17" flatron crt.

break out board - $30 or $40 (forget). chinese 4 axis with pwm spindle control.

mach3 - $159.

wiring - $25 at the electronics surplus store.

total costs involved, $189. nothing has shipping, everything sources local, software is online delivery. probably $8-$20 in tax in there, i forget if mach3 had tax.


thats the realistic price of what i can get... AND go get again. my shop throws away a half dozen perfectly working 3-4 year old animation workstations a year. ive got a second one under my desk for something else.

Offer the computers to those less fortunate and be helpfull to the community would paint a better picture of your character than constantly implying I'm a rip-off artist when there is no proof to substantiate your claims.

Think about it, if I was scamming people don't you think that someone would have posted something by now, I've been here more than 2 years?

Be realistic and stop making blanket statements like they apply to everyone equally unless you willing to do your part to ensure the claims you make are true.

My neighbor could use a good computer to run Mach3 for his home-built router, if he pays the shipping would you send him one of those free core 2 duo work-stations?

The fact that your situation allows you access to decent hardware for free doesn't mean everyone else has the same luxury.

The fact that I personally have nothing but single and dual CPU hex-core machines kicking around doesn't mean their free if I task it for a Mach3 job (what a waste of good hardware).

but now, we have an issue with yours. 1st, you mention $1000. now its $870. make up your mind. but which model was that? 980mda?

Why are you trying to mislead people by using partial quotes of statements I made because now people are wondering if your the sharpest tool in your tool shed.

My Statements:

less than $1,000.00 shipped

and

$870.00 plus shipping

GSK 980MDa panel = $870.00 (with extras you wont get from anyone else)
Shipping = $122.00
Total = $992.00 (less than $1000.00)

the price i can find is $1950. you claim to offer a 50% discount, but, to be blunt, dont know anyone whos bought from you, and with a panel like that, i need guaranteed technical support.

Servo Products is advertising it now on ebay for $1,599.00 might I suggest you expand your search to find more results.

The fact that you don't know anyone who has bought anything from me (which you like to keep pointing out) means nothing to me and implying I'm trying to rip people off by your comments and remarks is your mistake and shows your ignorance of the matter.

Anyone who buys from me I specifically tell them not to post anything here, they don't need to be attacked by you and others like you and that the drama isn't needed in their life.

If you research the GSK company you will see they are a serious competitor in the panel world and this doesn't happen with a small company that can't provide adequate end-user support.

Here everyone knows what a Fanuc panel is, overseas, everyone knows what a GSK panel is and they are beginning to get a foot-hold in the US market as their US sales climb.

the panel says 3 axis coordinate, 5 axis controlled. that makes it useless for alot of gantry routers, and limited, though not useless for a 4 or 5 axis mill. of course if you go to gsk's site and read the spec, it says its a 3 axis, with only 2 simultaneous. right off the bat, the specs and info arent right, so its ruled out completely for most people interested. if that latter spec is true, its a 2.5d control, and noone will want it.

You're joking right?

Has it crossed your mind that perhaps the discrepancies might be because the person writing the online info might have little (or no) technical document writing knowledge/experience and that the translation might not be entirely accurate?

You do realize that hardware slaving is a configuration option in a GSK and most real panels.

the max feed rate is listed at 7.6m/min. thats 300ipm. thats utterly useless for anything but a low end mill - owners of which wouldnt be interested in anyway.

7.6m/min??? Where do you see that because the printed manual clearly shows 60m/min for the MDa1 and 600m/min for the MDa and MDc.

then we start getting into the more serious issues. 40k program storage. thats a thousand or so lines. so this thing isnt going to contour unless its got drip feed dnc. that means you need another computer next to it.

I see that it does file spooling on the USB port so you only limited in file size by the size of your flash drive.

and thats about all i can find. no pdf, no g code and m code list, zip.

now, there are higher end gsk controls, for $3000 you get the 983 which claims 4 axis coordinated, and much faster speed. unfortunately many of the same problems with conflicting and incomplete info on the site, and the price edges is closer to some significantly better solutions.

What I am doing is attempting to help the hobby user by making available options at cost price making things more affordable, what you seem to be doing is attacking my character in an attempt to make me look like a The 983MaH is $2150.00 plus shipping and the 983MaV is $2470.00 plus shipping (H=Horizontal, V=Vertical) and the 218M/MC-H is $2150.00 plus shipping.

Since they are the same price I opted for four of the GSK-218M with 10.4in displays which comes with rigid taping and supports dual independent spindles and dual independent tool changers as my at home play panels and they gave me the 5-axis linking option for free.

Shipping is typically $120.00 to $145.00 on my commercial DHL account but if you would rather take care of shipping on your own be my guest.

GSK offers free 24/7 e-mail and telephone tehcnical support to those who have purchased from me and the fact that you're looking at a non-GSK owned website that shows prices is a clear indication to me that you are looking at the wrong place, GSK doesn't list prices on their website and the english that is there isn't what I would call the best translation.

It's not hard to do the math and see my offered prices are better than anywhere else and instead of talking to me to find out what drives me you would rather spend your time attempting to destroy my credibility along with any potential opportunity that users could benefit from.

I'm not here to educate you (or anyone else) on panels and motion speed and clearly you can't say that a panel rated at 60m/min isn't going to be fast enough for a router when the distance rating is based on 5 revs = 1in (or 25mm) travel and a typical router is rack based and 1 rev = 3in to 7in depending on the rack and gear (60 x 15 = 900m/min or 354in/min).

By the same token, I'm not going out of my way to do anything extra like scan in a manual and make a PDF to satisfy your morbid curiosity on a products technical details if a PDF isn't already available or make a video of a product in action and to make such demands will get you nowhere.

Want a video, look online, if you can't find one, call the factory, don't expect me to provide one to you.

Want a manual, look online, if you can't find one, call the factory, don't expect me to provide one to you.

Real manuals are included with each panel along with the supporting software and you certainly can't expect me to crack open a factory sealed box belonging to someone else just so you can get a copy of the software or a look at the manual do you?

We have established that you trust no one (specifically me) and that I think it would be in your best interest to avoid commenting and quoting my posts because you clearly can't do that properly as you have shown in your attempt to mislead people by quoting partials statements I have made and turned this thread into a three-ringed circus which you have done so often.

[ihavenofish]

youve made my point clearly.

im not intending to slag off the control, im just telling you why not many will want to buy them as a diy kit.

[dwalsh62]

youve made my point clearly.

im not intending to slag off the control, im just telling you why not many will want to buy them as a diy kit.

Whatever drugs your on I want some cause they gotta be good!!!!!

Your making statements and remarks about cost and functionality without knowing the actual functionality of the product you're comparing it too and not comparing the cost from a realistic position.

I think the person making the custom panels is doing something positive for the community by offering the product although no real price has been given.

I like others, think you're rude and arrogant for down-playing his and my efforts without offering anything really positive to the threads.

What the community needs is people willing to go out on a limb in their attempts to provide a reasonably priced product the community can accept, they don't need abusive rhetoric impugning their efforts.

If you can help him make it cheaper then by all means jump in and help the man but stop being so negative towards anyone who makes any kind of effort to help the community and stop making anyone one out to be a scammer just because you lack the ability to have an intelligent conversation with the person in a more appropriate setting and stop quoting facts about products you clearly have no real knowledge about.

It's sad to see that I can find with little effort more than one US based search results where the price is lower than your $1,950.00 price.

The details posted for the 980MDa1 panel at Hubbard CNC who also sells it for $1,599.00 is more accurate and also has the list of supported GCODE (I know because I gave him the posted details) and the panels essentially come from me and he receives the profit from the sale (I get none), things I do to help a friends business expand and grow so yes, it can be proven I help the community and that I am not the fly-by-night turkey you appear to be.

Check out my recent mid-sized frame thread and tell me why this is something the community wont be interested in buying because you can buy some 80/20, angle iron, a dremel and make a mill for $300.00 that is more flexible.

To the OP, I apologize for my posts, hopefully this will slip away with newer posts of your status, progress and efforts so people aren't subjected to the idiocies of these posts and I truly hope you are successful in generating an affordable solution for the home/hobbyist, if I can help you, please contact me.

[ihavenofish]

The details posted for the 980MDa1 panel at Hubbard CNC who also sells it for $1,599.00 is more accurate and also has the list of supported GCODE (I know because I gave him the posted details) and the panels essentially come from me and he receives the profit from the sale.

thanks for the list. by that reference control doesnt support constant velocity - so no high speed contouring. that pretty much kills it off for good.


so lets get back on track. the OP was a nice integrated control box for EMC2. would it sell? probably not to individuals as it ends up in limbo land. paying for an expensive box not apealing to hobby people. emc(or mach3) not appealing to more serious minded users.