[Don S]

I have been reading this site for quite a while and because of it and others I decided to buy a PCNC770. I bought a demonstration model from Tormach and picked it up a couple of months ago in Wanakee, Wis, it's about a two hr drive from my house. I live in Dubuque, Iowa. It has the ATC and 4th axis set up. I had to dismantle it to get into my basement, what a job that was. I finally got it reassembled and leveled. I have been manual machining for many years and am self taught. I have never ran a CNC but am looking forward to learning and making parts. I make restoration parts for Japanese military items. I need to buy a cad/ cam program now. For someone with no CNC or cad experience what would be the best way to go. I know this has been asked before. Most of the things I will be making will be reversed engineered from original parts from my collection. so I an thinking about buying a digitizer probe. I have seen many of commercial model and a number of self built models. I don't want to spend an arm and a leg for one yet. I saw one at the deepgrove1 site. has anyone used this digitizer? Thank you for any help. Also looking for a mentor in this area:-) Don

[wwendorf]

HI DonS,

Congrats on your new mill. I am also going to be the proud owner of a new PCNC 770 this coming Wednesday. Luckily I don't have to take it downstairs as my shop is in my garage, however I have to get pretty good at doing some shoehorning pretty soon. I need to figure out what get's to get a new home outside of my garage.

In response to your question about software, if 2.5d will handle your needs, I would suggest you considering DolphinCadCam. It is a really great software package and is very easy to use. If you have a need for full 3d stuff, I can say that Alibre is a great CAD software. I'm not sure about 3d CAM, but I have heard that visual mill is pretty good, as is SprutCam.

Once again, congrats on your toy. If you ever get up to MN, give me a PM and we'll get together and compare notes.

Cheers!
Wade

[tbaker2500]

Congrats, Don!

For 2.5d work, I highly recommend Vectric's VCarve Pro. It's both CAD and CAM in one package, and very easy to use. It's very intuitive when you are used to manual work. You draw some lines, and either cut around/cut inside/cut on the line, or create pockets, or drill. It's good enough to do 99% or what I mill, and it's really fast to create things.
For 3d work, Sprutcam is the best bang for the buck. The learning curve is much, much steeper, partly because of the CAM, and partly because your CAD is 3D, which is a big step up.
Tormach sells both packages.

[Steve Seebold]

Hi Don and congrats on your new machine. I have had mine since last July and let me tell you, I REALLY like it.

Mine is a Series II. I got it about a month before the Series III's came out.

As an ex owner of a real shop, I can tell you that I have found that with this machine, you are only limited by your imagination.

I had a FADAL and a Haas in my shop, and the ONLY difference in those machines and the Tormach is the $60,000.00 you didn't have to spend. The Tormach will do anything those machines would do. It just takes a little longer.

[philbur]

I don't think that a digitiser is a substitute for CAD/CAM when making precision parts of a "technical" nature.

To cut a pocket that takes 5 mins using CAD/CAM will thak many times that using a digitised image and will not have the same finish or precision.

I've never used a digitiser so maybe somebody else with experience can jump in.

Your real question is can I get away with 2.5D or am I going to have to use 3D CAD/CAM (hopefully not).

Phil

PS: Perhaps some photos of a typical range of parts would help

[Steve Seebold]

I do 3D work on my PCNC 1100 all the time without a digitizer.

If you get a good 3D model from your customer, or you learn to draw in 3D you'll do fine. I draw everything in 3D so I can see what the part is going to look like before I start cutting on it.

[Don S]

Thank all of you for your input. Steve, my limits are my knowledge of CNC, at his time. it is all overwhelming. I have been making parts for 40 years +. I have been using an old 1941 Logan lathe with no quick change gear box and a Mill Drill with additional accessories. I have attached pictures of some of the things I make. It's difficult to see the scope of the work on some of the parts from the top view so I took some pictures of a few things from different angles. I have a 7 page list of parts that I make, most of which are for WW2 Japanese military items, mostly pistol and rifle parts. I make some things that are not Japanese but with my extensive parts collection I can pull the item off the wall, go into the shop and make the part then fit it to it's mating part so I know it will work. With other non-Japanese parts I can only get close and can't guarantee they will fit the other things.

[Don S]

Here are a few more things so you can see some of the detail of my parts. The last picture of the radial checkering was done on a CNC mill. Not by me:-( I made everything else on my old machines.

[philbur]

Virtually everything you show is 2.5D. the sunflower pattern could be make with CNC 3D or manually using a rose engine. None of it would suit the use of a digitiser.

How many of each of these parts would you make at one go?

Phil

[wwendorf]

Virtually everything you show is 2.5D. the sunflower pattern could be make with CNC 3D or manually using a rose engine. None of it would suit the use of a digitiser.

How many of each of these parts would you make at one go?

Phil

Speaking of Rose Engines, that's what I Manufacture. Mandala Rose Works LLC - Home I have done all of the parts for my Rose Engines with Dolphin Cad/Cam 2.5d software.

Wade

[Don S]

Hi Phil,

I usually make 10-20 of some of these parts, probably more when I get the machine running. It's small niche market, I hope to expand into areas other that Japanese. Can, with what you suggest, be used with a 4th axis unit? I am going to retire in June and will be doing this full time or at least when I want to and not have to work early morning and later in the evening because of work:-).

[philbur]

Don, Your parts look relatively simple from a CNC point of view. You could actually manually gcode them relatively easily. I would suggest you start with a simple, integrated 2.5D CAD/CAM system. It will do what you need and the learning curve will be as smooth as is possible.

With 2.5D you can use the 4th axis for indexing to the backside for example. However from the parts you have shown your 4th axis will probably spend most of its time collecting dust. I think you need to look at mounting multiple parts on a fixture directly on the table for quick production. Flip the 20 parts over then machine the backside if required.

I use TurboCAD/CAM 2.5D, which works well enough but I believe there are simpler/cheaper/better integrated 2.5D systems out there. Somebody else will hopefully jump in here.

Phil

Hi Phil,

I usually make 10-20 of some of these parts, probably more when I get the machine running. It's small niche market, I hope to expand into areas other that Japanese. Can, with what you suggest, be used with a 4th axis unit? I am going to retire in June and will be doing this full time or at least when I want to and not have to work early morning and later in the evening because of work:-).

[Don S]

Hi Phil,

I used to have TurboCad a number of years ago, the wife got it for me as a Christmas gift, but never learned how to use it and now that I wanted to learn I can't find it. I have had a promotion From TurboCad for the 19.2 upgrade for $199.99 but don't want to spend the money if I need something else. Not knowing enough about it I wasn't sure. I don't recall anything about a cam program with it. I'll have to check into this.

[tbaker2500]

Hi Don!
Looks like some detailed, specialized work, but very doable. Since you have said that you're overwhelmed about the CNC side of things, I'll go through a couple of steps. Please forgive me if I insult your intelligence, just trying to be helpful.

There are several ways to use your CNC, coming from manual. Depending on how your brain works, either the easiest or the hardest way is to write g-code. All g-code is, are instructions telling the machine where to move to. So g1 x1.5 y1 f4.6 means move to co-ordinates x 1.5" by y 1" at a feed rate of 4.6 inches per minute. (Giving you USA units here.)

All CAM programs do it create the g-code for you, using drawings instead of raw numbers.

The next step up is using a 2.5D cad/cam package. 2.5D simply means that you draw everything in 2D, and specify a depth of cut. I've not used the others, but they are all probably similar. When I use VCarve, at the very basic level, I define my workpiece size, the draw a line/box/arc. I then tell it to cut inside/outside/on those lines. Everything else is just built upon that. You get to define exactly where each point is by numbers to refine things.

Moving up to 3D is a fairly big jump in learning curve and costs. Just drawing lines doesn't cut it anymore, you have to learn how to work with your specific program to draw a model in 3D. This is very easy for some people, and very hard for others. Then a 3D cam package, like Sprutcam, lets you create milling paths which can bring complex curves and shapes to life.

Ultimately, 2.5D lets you do basic geometry. 3D lets you do very complex curves and shapes that you could never do by hand.

For what it's worth, VCarve has specialized functions to allow you to carve 3D patterns like the checkering. It's not a typical 2.5D function, but VCarve kinda specializes in it.

[philbur]

The CAM part comes as a plug-in for the TurboCad part. Read up on the Cam part of TurboCad.

Just had a quick look on the IMSI website. Can't see what version of the Cam plug-in they are currently using. However it looks like they are using it to sell the latest version of Cad. Previously the plug-in was extremely poorly supported. IMSI is a marketing company more than they are a technical products provider. If your IMSI upgrade path to full 2.5D Cad/Cam is more that a couple of hundred dollars I would look elsewhere.

Tormach use to supply turboCadCam but it seems they have dropped it, you might want to ask them why.

Phil

PS: As a marketing company IMSI will sell their software for whatever price they can get. they are always trying to do a deal. Don't accept the sticker price, ever.

Hi Phil,

I used to have TurboCad a number of years ago, the wife got it for me as a Christmas gift, but never learned how to use it and now that I wanted to learn I can't find it. I have had a promotion From TurboCad for the 19.2 upgrade for $199.99 but don't want to spend the money if I need something else. Not knowing enough about it I wasn't sure. I don't recall anything about a cam program with it. I'll have to check into this.

[Don S]

Thank you all for your input. Several years ago I had a TurboCad program but never did learn how to use it now when I want to start learning CAD I can't find it. I have been getting emails for the TurboCad 19.1 up grade for $199.99. I can get the Cam plugin for am additional cost both together is 599.99 + shipping. My question is I found Bobcad.cam V24 on ebay for roughly the same amount. Is Bob Cad/cam easier to learn than Turbo Cad, is one better than the other? Thank you.

[DiverBob]

I can't speak to TurboCad but I've been using BobCad for 2-3 years (version 23) and recently upgraded to v24. I've found that it has its quirks like most software but the key to understanding it and getting the most out of it was also getting the video training series. Without that help the software would have been a waste of time. With the video help I've been able to create every 2.5d project fairly easily. V24 fixes a lot of things I didn't like about the earlier version.
I don't have any experience using its 3D capabilities.

Bob