[AchillesGr]

hi,
i am totaly new to cnc and the last days i am reading the forums and trying to figure out the procces.
as i see there are many threads and i am completely lost..
can someone please give me some guidelines about the procces and where to start looking?

my machine is a bf20 (g704 ) with mt2

some questions i have:
1)is the mt2 with er collets ok for cnc conversion?
2)the mach 3 is the software to drive the servos right?can i read a solidworks file in the mach 3 ? if not , what is the procces?
3)the ballscrews are expencive, can i use the standard screws with mach3? is there a function to compensate the backslash?
4)can i use the machine for other non cnc operations throu the software or i must have it dedicated for cnc cutting?

can someone please give me a general idea of what i need and where to start looking?

please forgive my questions , the subject is so big that i am unable to figure out even the basics...

thanks!

[109jb]

1 - There is no reason that you can't convert to cnc and use the MT2 collets. It will mean longer tool changes, but can, and I'm sure has been done. The R8 spindle offers more opportunity to use things like the Tormach TTS tools for quicker changes, but a MT2 will work. Since parts for these machines are available, you could convert later on to an R8 taper spindle if you find that tool changes are too problematic.

2 - Mach 3 does not read solidworks files. The general flow is as follows:
. Part design - CAD like Solidworks, CATIA, AutoCAD, etc.
. G-code creation - CAM This can be done by hand for simple parts, but for more complex parts you use a CAM program like MasterCAM, SolidCAM, etc. that creates the g-code from user inputs and using the CAD model for the geometry.
. Interpreter - This is where Mach 3 comes in. It reads the G-code and based on what is there sends the actual signals to the machine to control its movement.

3 - You can use the standard lead screws, but I think you will find that the stock nuts will wear out rather fast when spun by a motor back and forth doing CNC. Mach3 has backlash compensation but you should get as much backlash out of the system as possible before enabling it.

4 - Once you go CNC you will not need the manual crank handles anymore. The system allows for "manual" control through MDI (manual data input), and through jogging. If you learn how to program, you can write short programs rather quickly to do a lot of stuff. You can also get a jog pendant to hook to the computer to make this even easier.

You have mentioned Mach3 several times and it is a popular program, but I would recommend looking into LinuxCNC.

[AchillesGr]

109jb,
Thanks for the reply.
The linuxcnc is instead of mach?do you mean a linux operating system?unfortunetely i have no idea of linux system if that is what you mean.
Mastercam,solidcam can not mill directly?these only produces the gcode as a file?

I am a litle familiar with solidworks and i would like to avoid to learn another software. I saw that there are some solidworks functions(if i understand corectly) that can mill directly or produce tbe gcode? I noticed even a mastercam or camwkrks plugin for solidworks.are all these only to produce the gcode for an interpreter or they give me the ability to mill directly?

Mastercam,solidworks needs very good machine to run.so i assume that i do the design on a specific pc an then produce and transfer the gcode to a dedicated cnc pc that has an operating system and an interpreter only instaled?

Is a dro needed?i was thinking to install a dro and do the cnc conversion later but the cost is very high also.if a cnc conversion give me some dro capabilities that would be nice . Is that posible?


So far i found these to orderi think many members uses these)

Automation Technologies
3 x KL-5056D Digital Bipolar Stepper Motor Driver-32 bit DSP Based
3 x NEMA23 570oz/in 5A 3/8” Dual Shaft Stepper Motor (KL23H2100-50-4B)
1 x 48VDC/12.5A Switching CNC Power Supply
1 x Aluminum Controller Box (up to 4 axis)
3 x Motor Cables

Do you have any kit to suggest for mounting those servos?anything else? Screws brand?type?

Thanks again for your help!!

[109jb]

LinuxCNC is a machine controller like Mach3, but it runs in the Linux operating system. Don't let the fact that it runs in Linux scare you off though as there is a CD that you can download that will install Linux with LinuxCNC already on it. You can also just boot to the CD to try it out without installing anything.

As for making the G-code for the machine controller, there really isn't any other choice. Solidworks itself doesn't have anything for making g-code. There are programs that work from within Solidworks, but I personally don't like a program that ties you to another program. I prefer standalone programs. Most of my stuff I have actually been hand programming as I don't have a CAM program at home right now. I have access to MasterCAM through a friend of mine and I like it. It is very capable but does have a bit of a learning curve. A popular one that I have been meaning to check out is CamBam which is lower cost and seems to have a good following. Other than hand writing the g-code programs you really don't have much choice but to try a few of the CAM programs out and see what you like. The unfortunate thing is that any of them will require some learning. The CAM programs don't directly control the machine. I'm sure there are exceptions, but most don't interface directly with the machine.

As for the DRO, the machine controller (Mach3 or LinuxCNC) have a position readout on the computer display, so a separate DRO isn't needed.

Your electronics looks good, but I don't see a breakout board on the list. This will be needed between the computer and the drivers. The C10 breakout board (BOB) from Automation Technologies is a popular one. I am using a cheap Chinese BOB I got off e-bay and have not had any problems. By all reports, the digital driver you have listed are very good. I went with the KL-6050 non-digital drivers and they are working well too. The 570 oz-in NEMA23 motors are what I have on my G0704 and they are working fine.

Good luck

[hoss2006]

AchillesGR,
The motors you mentioned are steppers not servos.
I have them recommended on my site here.
G0704 Electronics
Read thru the info below, you can find some good links to data that will help.

Welcome Aboard,
Hope you will find some of the following useful.
The first job you need to tackle is to READ, a lot. Be patient.
There is so much to learn and it's going to take some time to absorb it all.
It takes years, literally, to become a good machinist. Don't get frustrated
if something seems difficult, it'll come to you eventually. Hobby CNC requires
you to become familiar with machining, designing, electrical, programming and
computer skills to name a few. Oh, and get ready to spend a lot of money too.
You don't have to spend it all upfront to get started, you'll have years to add
to your shop. You can though, make your money back and then some if you make
something with your mill that customers want.

New to Machining in General?

Don't know what chip load or climb milling are? You'll need to start with the basics.
Take a class at your local VoTech or Community College if you can, the experience will be invaluable. Nothing like learning by doing.
If classes aren't possible, start by watching all ten MIT Machine Shop videos. They will give you a great overview of many of the machines
used in a typical shop and how to safely use them.
MIT TechTV – Machine Shop 1
Little Machine Shop has a great selection of books and videos to help as well.
Basic Machining Reference Handbook
Basic Machining Reference Handbook - LittleMachineShop.com
Machine Shop Basics
Machine Shop Basics - LittleMachineShop.com
Machine Shop Essentials: Questions & Answers
Machine Shop Essentials: Questions & Answers - LittleMachineShop.com
You can also rent DVD's from Smartflix.com that cover milling, turning CNC and other subjects.
SmartFlix, the Web's Biggest How-To DVD Rental Store

New to CNC?

CNC is cool but it's not magic. YOU have to know how to machine a part before you can tell the software how to do it.
Refer to Bob Warfields CNC Dictionary to get a leg up before attempting to jump into CNC.
CNC Cookbook: Dictionary
Learn what G-Code is and what each code does. CAM software (Computer Aided Manufacturing) will make life easier but
you still must learn the codes so that you can edit or write your programs.
The CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition by Peter Smid is a great comprehensive guide.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Handbook-Third-Peter-Smid/dp/0831133473/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235881817&sr=1-1]CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition: Peter Smid: 9780831133474: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]
CNCInformation.com has an e-course you can sign up for free to learn the basics of CNC.
Learn CNC, gcode, G-Code, G code Files in our E-mail Course
As mentioned, CAM software is very beneficial, almost mandatory for some parts.
CAD (Computer Aided Drafting) is used to design your part and usually outputs a full scale dxf file that most CAM programs can use to
generate a toolpath (g-code) to machine your part. Some software is packaged as CAD/CAM and can do it all at once.
There are MANY to choose from that range from FREE to tens of thousands of dollars.
Hobbyist don't need the capabilities of the high end programs. I have links to several programs that I've tried that are either free or
very reasonable at less than $1000, some very fine programs are only a few hundred.
I'd suggest you download and try them all, most are free to Try before you Buy.
It's important to pick a program that makes sense to YOU and not force yourself into using something that others find appealing.
Install the program and run though a couple of the tutorials that are either included with the software or available for download from their site.
Links
Once you find something you like, you can get help, tips or samples from forums on Yahoo.com or CNCZone.com
CAD software forum
CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net! - Powered by vBulletin
CAM software forum
CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net! - Powered by vBulletin

Looking For Your First Machine?

Don't rush out and buy a machine that's "On Sale", chances are you'll regret it later.
You need to have a handle on what type and size of parts that you're likely to make to make
an "informed" decision. The hobby will quickly turn sour if your machine cant "cut it".
Pay heed to those that have "been there, done that". There's nothing useful to be gained by
repeating someone else's mistakes. If you have an initial budget limit to jump into the hobby,
spend as much as you can on the machine. You will spend the rest of your life buying tooling,
so don't scrimp on the machine to get extra tools to start. A vise, clamping kit, a pair of calipers
and a small selection of cutting tools is all you need to start. Some companies include these with the machine anyway.
When the time comes to add more tooling, don't scrimp here either. A well made tool will last for years and years.
Measuring equipment is one place where you should spend more of your cash.
Your parts will only be as good as the tools you use to measure them.
High quality manufacturers such as Starrett, Brown and Sharpe or Mitutoyo won't let you down.
Starrett Precision Measuring Tools and Saw Blades Since 1880
Home - Brown & Sharpe
Mitutoyo America Corporation
I told you this hobby is not cheap.
Reading thorough reviews will also give a great incite into the machine of interest.
Minimill reviews
mini-mill.com home page
Minilathe reviews
mini-lathe.com home page

You Have the Machine, Now What?

You have your new machine and want to start making chips. Take some pics now,
it will never look this good again. Chances are your machine arrived by truck in a crate.
The Minimill review will give you some good pointers for unpacking, cleanup and accessories.
Homier Mill Review - page 1
Also be sure to completely read thru your user manual which are often available for download as pdf
from the sellers website.
Once you have the machine in it's home, it's almost time to get it dirty.
If you are using it manually, you can start in on the gib adjustment procedure, axis leadscrew bearing adjustment
and leadscrew nut adjustment (if possible) to get backlash as low as possible.
This is covered in most manuals but you can read about it in the LMS Minimill Users Guide page 14.
http://littlemachineshop.com/info/Mi...UsersGuide.pdf
Next you'll want to adjust the tramming/column alignment to insure the cutter is true to the table.
Tramming the X2 with Spindle/Column Alignment
Shop Info
Finally check that the X and Y axis are square.
Clamp a known square part such as a 123 block on the table aligning the left side with the Y axis
using an indicator. Snug down the 123 block and move the indicator to the front of the block.'
Run the X axis along the face and if you have no movement of the needle, all is well.
Any deflection from one end to the other indicates that the axis' are not square. If you are lucky,
you may find some flash on the end of one of the dovetails that can be removed with a fine file or sanding.
A severe out of square condition may require having the dovetails remachined or replacing
the saddle.
Out of square can be compensated for in the Mach 3 software under Formulas, but it's not ideal for long term.

If you're using the machine under CNC, perform the same procedures as above.
Then you'll want to setup the motor tuning.
Hossmachine_Cnc Conversion
Next is to check for backlash in the system.
Verifying Mach 3 Backlash Comp
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buXHZ_McbOY]Verifying Mach 3 Backlash Comp - YouTube[/ame]
Once that is taken care of, run the Axis Calibration for Mach 3 to make sure that Mach 3
is physically moving each axis the exact distance it is supposed to be moving.
Improved Mach 3 Axis Calibration
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkO5tc-jSxw]Improved Mach 3 Axis Calibration - YouTube[/ame]

You are now ready to put the machine though it's paces. This testing is important to get the
knowledge of what your machine is capable of for when it comes time to tell the CAM software
what cutters, RPM's, feedrates, DOC's (Depths of Cut) etc. to use. get some stock similar to what
you plan on using commonly and practice, practice, practice.
Try starting with a 3/8 endmill and make many passes using different rpms, feedrates and DOC's.
I made several videos doing just this, starting slow and building up speed and DOC each pass
until the mill said NO MORE. This gave me the maximum rates at which it can run, but I generally
run at less than half those rates to be comfortable.
Feedrate tests
Hossmachine Videos_4
Speed and Feed charts and Calculators are valuable tools to get into the ballpark for setting
the machining rates. Most are created with professional equipment in mind, so hobby machines
need to use the lighter slower side of the scale.
Shop Info

Shop Info
A good starting point is a chip load of .001 when using the calculator.
Most machines can handle a bit more, I hit .0075 in some of the tests. Too light a chip load
will cause too much chatter (squealing noise) and a poor finish. Using a cutting fluid such as
oil, silicon or water based will improve the machinability and surface finish.
Mach 3 contains many wizards that you can use to practice cutting parts also that will generate
g-code programs. This can help you see what each line of code is doing to the part.
It also gives you an incite into CAM software because you input the machining data in a similar way
and the program outputs your toolpath g-code.
Newfangled Solutions wizards aren't free but you can see on their website what some typically look like.
Newfangled Solutions LLC - Mach3 Addons for Mill
To get more out of Mach 3 or to just learn the basics, they have many tutorial videos to help you along.
ArtSoft USA - Video Tutorials
Told there was a lot to learn, but be patient, it'll only SEEM like a lifetime.
It may take weeks or months, but things will start clicking. Before you know it,
you'll be designing your own part, creating the toolpath, loading the program, setting up the machine and pressing START. Magic.
Hoss

[outsider787]

Wow Hoss.
That's quite the post! There's a lot of great information there. It should keep most beginners (like myself) busy for a good while.

That post alone is sticky-worthy. Maybe someone can make that happen.

[Fastest1]

Did you say you dont want to learn any other software and this is the beginning of your Cnc challenges? I was told long ago, there is only 1 thing you can change in this world! Your attitude.

Either you like to read and are very good at understanding complex materials (not my strong point) or some machinery will be for sale cheap soon.

Get used to challenges and solutions provided you never would have perceived. I would have to say the biggest challenge I have found, is just trying to express the issue I might be having problems with as a question. Seems easy, but to say we were all good English students might be pushing it. Then throw in reading problems like ADD or similar and well?

It will keep you out of the bars, or send you there! Btw Hoss keeps us all motivated and well read. I cant even figure out how he saves or refers to links. Hey Hoss how about a screenshot of your file structure for mill related info?

[AchillesGr]

Fastest1 you are absolutely right!
109jb and Hoss THANKS for any help. i am trying to read as much i can in the last days but the subject goes bigger as i dig deaper.

1)a point that still concerns me is how easy to use a mill as an ordinary dril or mill with all that motors an electronics. i am not all the time needs a cnc. how you guys overcome this? have another one smaller mill or drill? if you want to cut something or drill some holes you initiate all that proceces and pc?
2)i am not sure yet about the BOB . is there a reason not to use a usb other than the cost?
the c11 stated as a 12 outputs. that means 12 drivers?
do i control the spindle too?
3)what is going on with the spindles? do i need to upgrade the spindle motor and the rpms?i am cutting at about 500-1100 rpms without a coolant and did not had any particular problem. how much rpms do i need? why to go to a 4000rpms or 6000rpms?or higher??
4)is the 570oz enouth for the Z?

5) i see that there are a lot of sensors that are used to feedback the travel ends or maybe the axis autosetup. are all these attached to the BOB? (c10 ?,c11?) or do i need some other electronics too?
( i am trying to understand what materilal i need)

Hoss:
-why do you offer two power suplies? the regulated and the switched? what is the diference?
- the digital package you have is very interesting.and the heavy duty too...
-what else do i need to hook the servos to the mill?do you offer any other hardware?(screws, motor battachments or what else?)


thanks again!

[691175002]

Everyone asks if they can leave the handles on for their first conversion, and the answer is universally that you won't need them.

CNCCookbook has a few articles on it, but CNC is honestly superior to manual in in most cases, even for simple one-off parts. When is Manual Machining Better than CNC? « CNCCookbook CNC Blog CNCCookbook CNC Blog

Drilling a hole is literally just typing g81 x4 y5 z-0.5 r0.1 f10.
It would take me longer to crank the handles to x4y5 than it would to type that line.

[109jb]

Fastest1 you are absolutely right!
109jb and Hoss THANKS for any help. i am trying to read as much i can in the last days but the subject goes bigger as i dig deaper.

1)a point that still concerns me is how easy to use a mill as an ordinary dril or mill with all that motors an electronics. i am not all the time needs a cnc. how you guys overcome this? have another one smaller mill or drill? if you want to cut something or drill some holes you initiate all that proceces and pc?
2)i am not sure yet about the BOB . is there a reason not to use a usb other than the cost?
the c11 stated as a 12 outputs. that means 12 drivers?
do i control the spindle too?
3)what is going on with the spindles? do i need to upgrade the spindle motor and the rpms?i am cutting at about 500-1100 rpms without a coolant and did not had any particular problem. how much rpms do i need? why to go to a 4000rpms or 6000rpms?or higher??
4)is the 570oz enouth for the Z?

5) i see that there are a lot of sensors that are used to feedback the travel ends or maybe the axis autosetup. are all these attached to the BOB? (c10 ?,c11?) or do i need some other electronics too?
( i am trying to understand what materilal i need)

Hoss:
-why do you offer two power suplies? the regulated and the switched? what is the diference?
- the digital package you have is very interesting.and the heavy duty too...
-what else do i need to hook the servos to the mill?do you offer any other hardware?(screws, motor battachments or what else?)


thanks again!

1. As mentioned there is really no need for using the machine in a manual mode. You can operate the machine easily using jog commands or simple one line g- codes. Even a simple cut to square up a piece of stock is easier on the cnc once you get used to it. To move an axis, I just push a key on the keyboard and that axis moves. I adjust a slider and I can control how fast it moves. I can put it in incremental mode and move in 0.1, 0.05, 0.01, 0.005, 0.001, or 0.0005 inch increments. The controller has a DRO on it so I don't have to count turns. All of this is easy. However, if you don't believe it, you can always put some hand cranks on the other end of the motor if you get dual shaft motors.

2. The only way to use USB is to use a motion controller which takes care of the critical timing issues.

3. Upgrading the spindle for higher rpm allows running tools in the rpm range where they should be. Like small diameter carbide tools for example. You can get by without it. I have been running mine full rpm for most milling in aluminum. That is harder on the motor and brushes. It works, but upgrading allows using a motor in a friendlier rpm to the motor and the tool.

4. I am using the 570 oz-in on my Z and I can rapid over 200 IPM. That's fast enough for me.

5. I think you are referring to limit and home switches. These connect to the BOB and can be simple micro switches, proximity switches, optical switches, etc. with a simple micro switch, all you need to hook it up to the bob is the switch and some wire.

[Mad Welder]

.......my machine is a bf20 (g704 )......!

Hi there AchillesGr and welcome, I won't confuse you more by adding any more info than has already been posted....you've been given excellent sound advice there and I too have an Optimum BF20L which I'm in the process of converting to CNC...and one of the best things as already mentioned is 'read' as much as you can and also learn to have patience, as I've lost count of the number of times I've taken my mill apart and reassembled it because I've not learned the art of patience yet:stickpoke.

One other thing just to add, while you can purchase ready assembled (or as near to turn key) electronic hardware it does come with a "price" too, and while at present all this information is probably overwhelming to you, you can really save quite a bit of money by assembling the electronics yourself and then you'll have a little bit extra money to spend on tooling.....

[Mad Welder]

.....Hope you will find some of the following useful.......... START. Magic.
Hoss

OMG it took me about an hour to read the postand then I forgot what you'd said at the startand it took you all of 5 mins to type it and a nano-seccond of your brain power, and all this was done while you were watching football

[hoss2006]

OMG it took me about an hour to read the postand then I forgot what you'd said at the startand it took you all of 5 mins to type it and a nano-seccond of your brain power, and all this was done while you were watching football

lol, it took me all of 5 seconds to copy and paste from my original post.
Attention Newbies! - CNC - The Hossmachine Forum
People don't follow links as much as reading what's put right in front of them.
Hoss

[hoss2006]

Hoss:
-why do you offer two power suplies? the regulated and the switched? what is the diference?
- the digital package you have is very interesting.and the heavy duty too...
-what else do i need to hook the servos to the mill?do you offer any other hardware?(screws, motor battachments or what else?)


thanks again!

Switching supplies are fine up to about 48 volts and are generally lighter and smaller, easier to fit in a case
while going over 50v the unregulated supply is the way to go.
Some manufacturers only recommend using unregulated with their drivers though.
I'm not interested in stirring yet another argument on the subject but this thread covers it.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera...switching.html
I personally use a 48v switching and a 72v unregulated for my needs.
Again these are steppers not servos (the 570 oz/in)
There are hardware, kits etc. listed under "CNC Kits and Plans" here. g0704.com
Hoss

[hoss2006]

Btw Hoss keeps us all motivated and well read. I cant even figure out how he saves or refers to links. Hey Hoss how about a screenshot of your file structure for mill related info?

Sure.


Hoss

[Mad Welder]

Sure.


Hoss

Aaaaa ha ha very good.......never saw that one before. ...

[Fastest1]

Homer is more organized than I am? I am going to buy some bacon on my wifes credit card and sell the grease for a profit and eat bacon all day long.

[outsider787]

Homer is more organized than I am? I am going to buy some bacon on my wifes credit card and sell the grease for a profit and eat bacon all day long.

You can also grease you mill with some of it!
Brilliant plan.

[allentimothy1]

You can also grease you mill with some of it!

[AchillesGr]

Hoss,
I am not able to see the kits and plans section on the g0704 page.it seems that the page not working?
Ok about tbe electronics page you sent me.do you offer motor mounts and complete hardware too?
Thanks.