[MITYDR]

I a bought a CNC machine described as "in good working condition". Trusting sole as I have been. I drove out and checked the machine out myself. It was wired up off to the side and in running condition, the tool changer was mostly empty. I saw it do a few tool changes and ran the spindle with and without tools in it. A few red flags were there but I had wired the money in good faith prior.

That was a more than a month ago! I have not made any chips! I have owned many CNC's in the past, this is not my first for sure. I have gone through half my vacation time from my work trying to fix it. Now I'm looking at a scheduled visit from a tech to see if he can solve the problem. I have to take more vacation time for that, plus pay for the tech.

I spent a good chunk of saved up cash on a machine that is just sitting there. I am at wits end and it has put a major damper on the holiday.

The list of things I have reset or fixed is already more than I would like and more than I think any machine should have.

Is it ok to sell a machine advertised as "good working condition" and have it be not so? If it was held together just to make the sale.

What would you do?

[Al_The_Man]

About the only thing you probably can do is phone the seller and let him know that it is not in fact in good working the condition and see if he will return a percentage of the payment.
Maybe worth a first step try?
Al.

[wizard]

I a bought a CNC machine described as "in good working condition". Trusting sole as I have been. I drove out and checked the machine out myself. It was wired up off to the side and in running condition, the tool changer was mostly empty. I saw it do a few tool changes and ran the spindle with and without tools in it. A few red flags were there but I had wired the money in good faith prior.

For one people that might be working condition.

That was a more than a month ago! I have not made any chips!

Why not? I've read your post here twice any yet nothing comes across as a problem. If you are not making chips you must have specific issues to resolve.

I have owned many CNC's in the past, this is not my first for sure. I have gone through half my vacation time from my work trying to fix it. Now I'm looking at a scheduled visit from a tech to see if he can solve the problem. I have to take more vacation time for that, plus pay for the tech.

Yes but what is the problem?

I spent a good chunk of saved up cash on a machine that is just sitting there. I am at wits end and it has put a major damper on the holiday.

The list of things I have reset or fixed is already more than I would like and more than I think any machine should have.

It is a used machine, you can't expect perfection. Further what is it with the resetting. Each paragraph you write leaves us further in the dark.

Is it ok to sell a machine advertised as "good working condition" and have it be not so? If it was held together just to make the sale.

First off you have to define good working condition. The only thing we know for sure is that it apparently doesn't run for you.

Consider a few things.

One example is that we have been running certain machines at our plant for close to 15 years now never using some of the features they came with. I couldn't even tell you if those features worked when the machine was new much less now.

A second example, is this, the same machines above have now worn out some parts, leadscrews, bearings and such. The machines are still operating but will need rebuilds soon. They are in fact in running condition even if it is known that the machines need work.

I'm not sure what your meaning here is with "held together" but frankly that is bogus in my opinion. The machine ran for you at their plant so it couldn't have been patched that much. In a nut shell I'm not buying the held together description.

What would you do?

Well for one wait for the service techs report. If the unit was clearly non functional before sale he may be able to determine that. If so you may have legal material to send lawyers after them. The economics of doing so are questionable though. You might be able to get the repaired parts paid for though and then have to pay your lawyers for the efforts. It would be far more difficult to demonstrate fraud though.

The other possibility is that the machine got damaged in transit. Again the service tech might help there. The cost there is on either you or the rigger. One other thing the factory might have a call and service history for the machine.

In a nut shel it isn't ethical to knowingly sell a machine as working when you know 100% that it isn't. In between 0 & 100% there is a huge gulf though. Further working can mean different things to different people. You can sell a 1930's Ford to one person and leave him in ecstasy another person would be extremely upset if they got a hang nail while tightening a screw on the car. The expectations when people buy used vary widely and as much as with the people selling. Maybe you expected an itemized list of every known issue on the machine, I don't know but what I do know is that such a list can not cover the legitimate unknowns.

To put it bluntly you made a huge mistake paying for a machine site unseen. Especially if you have not done business with the organization before. Having made the transfer you are already biased to overlook those red flags and to ignore the body language and behavior of the people you are dealing with. Often you can tell more about the state of a machine by the behavior of the people doing the selling, if they leave with the taste of a sleazy used car salesman then maybe it is time to shake hands and leave.

I know many have done so with great success, but I'd never buy a non trivial used machine without seeing it with my own eyes first. That includes new machinery if it is of a type and model new to me. If it is a used machine I'd want access to test and inspect and to operate under load, I'd also want access to maintenance records and even the maintenance personnel. If the maintenance department doesn't keep records and doesn't have a formal PM system then that is a big negative right there.

In the end I don't know what your legal rights here are. I suspect this will be a painful lesson even if you can get some compensation. Consider in the future holding onto your money until the last possible moment. Further when going to a site to inspect take along somebody with a pessimistic outlook on life that isn't easily side tracked by slick talk. Make sure you two are on the same page before going through with the deal.

[MITYDR]

Thanks Wizard,
The words ring true that you say. I have spent too much of my holiday time on this already.
Thank you (and Al the Man) for your time.

[BrassBuilder]

I think you missed the point of wizard's post....

You have really not posted anything so that anyone here can help you diagnose the issue. There are some mighty smart people here that will give their advice for free based on what you tell them.

At this point in time we know:

1. You have a machine that does not work.
2. You are unhappy.

That really does not say alot to assist in diagnosing your issue. So....and this is my share of advice that I can give.

I would recommend that you:

1. Post your machine make, model, and ANY pertinent information about the machine. You cannot post too much info.

2. What EXACTLY is the machine NOT doing? Again...lots of details help.

That is my .02 in this. Take it for what it is worth. I'm not saying anyone can help you....I'm just saying we can't help you with the info posted so far.

Good luck.

Mike