[centernorway]

5 axis cnc machine for everybody?
I am from Norway and want to develop a cnc machine.
I want to make a smal market analysis for the cnc machine I want to develop.
Then I need to figure out how big the market is for this type of cnc machine.

Some keywords that describe the machine concept.

The machine is designed for cnc hobby enthusiasts and small businesses.
The machine should be in a price range that is achievable for these groups and who are looking for the best.
It will have up to light metal milling strongness, but can mill ordinary metal with finer cuts data.
And be cheaper than the best and most professional models on the marked to day, that this machine concept can compare with.
The machine shall have a maximum height of 2.0 to 2.3 meters (78 " to 90"). (To get in into any hobby room / basement
Length and width, maximum 2.5 x 1.5 meters. ( 98" x 59" )
Minimum z axis motion 450 - 500 millimeters ( 18" to 20" )
It will be both a 3 axis and 5 axis machine
Axis controller - Match3 or similar inexpensive and easy to learn software.
It will not have many options, it will have everything it needs to be the best on the market.
One cnc machine I can compare with is a 5 axis machine costs 39,500 USD, and axis movements is 860 x 860 millimeters an Z axis movement 610 millimeters (34" x 34" x 24" ).
My machine will be bigger, better and not more expensive.
I can not currently provide more details about this machine concept.
But please leave a comment on questions 1 and 2.

1. Is this a machine concept you think you will buy?
2. Other comments..

Best regards

[CaptainVee]

5 axis machines need expensive software and probably a lot of training. I think that most hobbyists will stop there.

For small businesses, if you can solve a real problem for a good price there may be a market.

[ger21]

1) No.

2) $40,000 is way out of hobby territory, and a lot even for a small business.

[LeeWay]

I own and operate a small business. Very small. 2 guys. $10,000 would be as much as I would be looking to spend if I needed another machine.
No way I need 5 axis though. 4 would be tops.

[justernst]

hi center

i know a lot of people think about buying a machine like this, much people out have ideas for products and need for this smaller marked, machines that can do easily this products

i also think about buying

a machine, you offer here, since 5 years, i need it for wood and foam work, to make molds and prototypes for little series, and this is the point, to have a machine less expensive, but acurater than the most chinese-routers, with good, not best, quality, to can make fast a mold and can sell fast a ready product in small series

i think your concept about can work if you are able to hold cost down and bring a real good, easy learning machine on market

regards

ernst

[cambosoup99]

"My machine will be bigger, better and not more expensive"

gee... i hope not, no one would buy it for those prices. That's absolutely out the range for cnc hobbyist.

[wizard]

5 axis cnc machine for everybody?
I am from Norway and want to develop a cnc machine.
I want to make a smal market analysis for the cnc machine I want to develop.
Then I need to figure out how big the market is for this type of cnc machine.

Some keywords that describe the machine concept.

The machine is designed for cnc hobby enthusiasts and small businesses.
The machine should be in a price range that is achievable for these groups and who are looking for the best.
It will have up to light metal milling strongness, but can mill ordinary metal with finer cuts data.
And be cheaper than the best and most professional models on the marked to day, that this machine concept can compare with.
The machine shall have a maximum height of 2.0 to 2.3 meters (78 " to 90"). (To get in into any hobby room / basement
Length and width, maximum 2.5 x 1.5 meters. ( 98" x 59" )
Minimum z axis motion 450 - 500 millimeters ( 18" to 20" )
It will be both a 3 axis and 5 axis machine
Axis controller - Match3 or similar inexpensive and easy to learn software.
It will not have many options, it will have everything it needs to be the best on the market.
One cnc machine I can compare with is a 5 axis machine costs 39,500 USD, and axis movements is 860 x 860 millimeters an Z axis movement 610 millimeters (34" x 34" x 24" ).
My machine will be bigger, better and not more expensive.
I can not currently provide more details about this machine concept.
But please leave a comment on questions 1 and 2.

1. Is this a machine concept you think you will buy?
2. Other comments..

Best regards

Milling machine or router gantry machine? I'm sitting here trying to figure out what you have in mind because you are talking a pretty huge milling machine for a basement. If not a milling machine then I don't understand why the machine would be so tall for a router. On top of all of that hobbiest are not about to layout $40,000 for a milling machine. Even a small business needs to budget for that.

As to your two questions:
1. At this point no. Why because I really don't know what you have in mind plus I have no place to out it.
2. When offering up these ideas more info and a good definition go a very long way. Beyond that there is the concept of no free lunch. You talk of a 5 Axis machine but that can mean a lot of things to different people. A axis for example can be anything from a cheap stepper driven rotary to something more integrated into the machines design.
3. Unless you have a novel approach that hasn't been tried before what makes you think that you can compete with established makers of 5 Axis machines? I'm not saying you can't just that if you expect to deliver on what is described above you will need a plan.
4. Don't focus on just Mach. You really need to be able to offer any machine you make in at least two or three controller versions. Or allow for the user the ability to easily install his favorite. That means non proprietary components and good documentation.

{I know that is four to your two but you need to show that you have a feasible plan before people will get on board.}

[TechGuy5002]

FWIW: I am (slowly) working on a machine in similar size, but I think one issue you have not discussed is: weight. A machine of that size will weigh close to a ton for cutting steel. since you need to build it with stiff materials (steel or perhaps granite-epoxy). The issue may not be the size but weight. I can't see a market for a machine cutting just alum for a large machine. If your working with large pieces of metal, your probably machining steel too.

I think you will have a tough time finding a market for this. I believe most people interested in a full size machine will either go with something like a Tormach Mill, or just buy a commercial machine. I don't think I would consider buying from you, since if it doesn't work out, you would just fold the operation and I would be out luck. I would imagine a machine of that size would have $10K USD in material costs (ballscrews, motors, frame materials, linear rails, etc). Precision Ballscrews costs about $1500, which is $4.5K in just the ballscrews for three axis.

You also need to consider support. what if something breaks or if the user screws something up? How will you expense your support costs? Also consider the liabilities. What if a customer gets hurt while operating your machine, and they pursuit Litigation against you. I think if commerical companies could sell and support their machines for a lower cost they would as there is a significant amount of competition in CNC mills. I think it will be hard for you to complete with commercial machines, even in the hobby side with a large machine.

You may have better marketing options with a smaller machine. Perhaps with a machine with a movement area under 12" cubed, since its would be light enough for a desktop, the cost and weight would be significantly less and I don't think there are any desktop 5-axis machines on the market. I suspect there are a number of hobbiest and businesses that have a need for a small 5-axis machine, but I am not an expert on this. Just my best educated guess.

[Danno]

IMHO, you would be far better off offering a bolt on package to convert an existing mill. An example is the C and CNC package. I bought their plasma electronics, and have been very happy with it. I also converted my NC mill to CNC using off the shelf components, and it has been a bit of a pain to do. If someone offered all the electronics already mounted in a box, and basically ready to go, that's what I would go with.

[aldepoalo]

5-Axis Machining, 5-Axis Mill - YouTube

Maybe something like this?

[wizard]

Nice flick!

5-Axis Machining, 5-Axis Mill - YouTube

Maybe something like this?

[jimglass]

Below is a 3 axes mill I built from scratch. It has a 1/2 hp DC motor and metal
cutting capability.



Running a production job



Ballscrew



Jim

[Chris Duncan]

No I would not buy. This is too big for a hobbyist and most people don't need 5 axis.

Plus I want it to be modular, not just in one configuration so I can afford to upgrade over time.

Even if you beat this price by 1/2 it's too expensive, I'm looking at 10K max.

The only way you are going to do what you're thinking is to do all the engineering yourself and farm the mechanical construction to China.

Look at the Tormach for an example of what you're talking about. Look at how many engineers they employ and how much time and money they spent getting to market. If you did this they would be your competition, and I do think there is a market.

[centernorway]

Thank you for your comment.
I understand that some things can be hard to understand.
My English is not the best.
I describe size, and price.
This is how the biggest and most expensive might be.
There will be a gantry style cnc machine.
This thread was just a start, intersting to start discussion on this to hear what the cnc world says about these ideas

[Tomax]

For similar build took me more than 3 years of R&D, testings and lot of resources, besides I had access to similar (commercial) milling machine (5axis) on big scale, so my goal was to downsize that. Once you start working on project like that, you discover that adding 2 more (rotary) axes to "standard" 3axis machine is not very easy task and things are getting quite complicated from mechanical, electronic and software side.
You have to also consider that software capable of output full 5axis G-code will cost you from 5k+€ up.

[handlewanker]

I could not imagine a 5 axis being aimed at a hobbyist with the idea that being the best and cheapest will come in the same package.

A machine at hobby level and 2 to 2 1/2 metre height would put it into the realms of a Bridgeport size if it was a bed type mill, so far out of proportion for hobby use nobody would buy it, and if it was a twin column router type, 2 1/2 metres in height would be ludicrous.

I think you have to be more specific in the work envelope you intend to design for.....a block of metal 1/2 metre cubed is a large piece of metal .......by hobby or even small business standards.

Unless you have an idea of the job size that you intend to design for, all the specifications are meaningless.

Here is a design of mill that I think has great promise and the design is pure CNC orientated.......what features would you specify to make the design you have in mind work?
Ian.

[Tomax]

There is already commercial "benchtop" 5 or even 6 axis milling machine, affordable even for small business produced by Mdaprecision

[Dylwad]

There is already commercial "benchtop" 5 or even 6 axis milling machine, affordable even for small business produced by Mdaprecision

$42,000 isn't what I would call affordable for that machine, especially considering it runs Mach3 and open loop steppers standard.

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[Dylwad]

I could not imagine a 5 axis being aimed at a hobbyist with the idea that being the best and cheapest will come in the same package.

A machine at hobby level and 2 to 2 1/2 metre height would put it into the realms of a Bridgeport size if it was a bed type mill, so far out of proportion for hobby use nobody would buy it, and if it was a twin column router type, 2 1/2 metres in height would be ludicrous.

I think you have to be more specific in the work envelope you intend to design for.....a block of metal 1/2 metre cubed is a large piece of metal .......by hobby or even small business standards.

Unless you have an idea of the job size that you intend to design for, all the specifications are meaningless.

Here is a design of mill that I think has great promise and the design is pure CNC orientated.......what features would you specify to make the design you have in mind work?
Ian.

What mill is that?

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[handlewanker]

Hi Dylwad, quite an interesting design, unfortunately I can't say what make it is as the picture was part of a collection from 'net browsing that illustrated some mills that were being used in light industry.

It is/was however a totally dedicated CNC mill with counterbalanced head features, not a retrofit run of the mill manual design.

At the time there was a CNC mill build being described on the forum by Skyfire that showed the desirable build design from the ground up, dedicated to pure CNC requirements as opposed to getting and retrofitting a current manual mill/drill model.

One thing I did not like about the mill design in this picture and that is the table is short in the X axis, due to the fact that the linear rails are on the saddle and the table slides on them, as opposed to the more popular design where the rails are on the bottom of the table and the table then can be longer, making a more compact package.....also if the table is longer, but not necessarily having the longer travel, it enables more room for 4th axis equipment and longer job support.

One aspect of the design interested me and that was that it would lend itself to fabrication from steel plate stock fully welded etc.
Ian.