[jcarver]

Hi everyone,

Like the title states I'm a total newbie. Up until Sunday I knew absolutely 0 about cnc machines, milling or anything like that. I've been searching around for the last couple of days trying to answer some of my own questions which some success but I still feel pretty in the dark at the moment. I'm hoping I can tell you guys my story/idea and you guys could point me in the right direction and give me a swift kick in the butt to get me going .

So here goes...

I have a hobby that I've gotten pretty deep into and we use little parts that are made out of 6061 aluminium. There are really only a couple of small businesses out there that produce these products and they are really backed up with orders. By a couple months in most cases. There not patented parts or anything like that. Here is an example of one of them (this one happens to be gold plated)



With that said I would like to produce some of these for myself and I see a bit of a business opportunity.

I've looked around and I found lots of home made cnc machines/mils that might be able to work but I don't know that they would hold up to production volume or if there even able to do what I want them to do. Some people said the little motors are really for plastic or wood.

So question #1. Could anyone recommend an affordable device that could make these things and wouldn't break down on me? To give you an idea on production volume I would expect to make only 2-3 pairs of those things above a day. At least initially while I'm getting my foot in the door. I'd rather not build it myself I'd rather just buy it. Also if it help the things I would be working on generally would not exceed 3" wide x 2" tall x 12-15" deep.

question #2. Is this something a newbie like me could even do or am I totally out line considering something like this.

question #3. If the answer to #2 is yes does it make sense to try to partner with someone local with equipment to do the work cutting these things or does that not make sense either?

Sorry in advance all, I'm sure a lot of that sounds silly but any help is much appreciated.

[doorknob]

You haven't given an indication of what "affordable" means to you. Without that it would be hard to give you a meaningful answer. I don't have a clue about the use or function of those parts - are those actually gold-plated hex-head setscrews in the photo?

Generally speaking, before you go off and buy a CNC milling machine and use it to create even small production runs, it would be a good idea for you to get some hands-on training in manual machining processes (for example, by taking Intro to Machine Technology courses at a local community college or vocational tech school).

There are other alternatives that might make sense (although without understanding the economics involved it is difficult to give concrete advice), for example contracting the job out to a local (or not-so-local) machining job shop, or using a service such as CNC Machine Shop | Custom Waterjet, Plasma, Laser Cutting | eMachineShop.com to make the parts to your specifications, and you market them, perhaps while also taking classes so that eventually you can move production in-house.

[jcarver]

You haven't given an indication of what "affordable" means to you. Without that it would be hard to give you a meaningful answer. I don't have a clue about the use or function of those parts - are those actually gold-plated hex-head setscrews in the photo?

Generally speaking, before you go off and buy a CNC milling machine and use it to create even small production runs, it would be a good idea for you to get some hands-on training in manual machining processes (for example, by taking Intro to Machine Technology courses at a local community college or vocational tech school).

There are other alternatives that might make sense (although without understanding the economics involved it is difficult to give concrete advice), for example contracting the job out to a local (or not-so-local) machining job shop, or using a service such as CNC Machine Shop | Custom Waterjet, Plasma, Laser Cutting | eMachineShop.com to make the parts to your specifications, and you market them, perhaps while also taking classes so that eventually you can move production in-house.

To be honest I haven't really calculated out what affordable means yet. What I'm trying to do is put together the numbers to see if it could be a profitable business venture. During my research I've seen small cnc machines that are sub $1000 and others that are priced $10,000 plus. I can tell you without running any major numbers that if I could purchase something sub $1000 I would be able make a return within a reasonable about of time. If I had to spend $10,000 then it just wont be practice. So at this point I'm looking for an inexpensive option that I can use to determine if the business venture is practice or not.

I like the idea about taking some classes. If this looks like on paper something that could work that would be the first thing I would do. I even have a local vocational school that has a full machining shop if I remember correctly.

I also like your idea about using someone like CNC Machine Shop | Custom Waterjet, Plasma, Laser Cutting | eMachineShop.com. I will look into them. One problem with that is most of my stuff would probably have to be pretty standardized and I would guess that 20% give or take would be one off's. I'm not sure if they could accommodate that but it would seem less likely.

[victorofga]

to producing thosw parts, the simplest is getting a mini mill and late from harborfreigth or grizzly... that could cost a 2K and up...
these would be conventional, but a good setup and you get profit of..

next step to getting a mini cnc mill.. like syl or tormach or any brand you feel you can afford somewhere 4-5K the least price and up..

if youre sure it is the product that work for you.. then dont hesitate buy a mini cnc mill..

what you can build at home with drillpress and regular tools that will work mainly for woods and plastic.. hard to imagine you make a cast iron mill with cnc at home.. what actually need for effectively machining these..

[doorknob]

Doing a CNC conversion of something like a Sieg X2 mini mill (or the Harbor Freight equivalent) would handle workpieces of the size that you mentioned. The manual mill by itself can be purchased for anywhere between $500 and maybe $1100, depending on which version you get. A decent CNC conversion of such a machine would probably cost around $600 for ballscrews and motor mounts, plus an additional $600 to $700 for stepper motors, power supply, and motor driver electronics. If you wanted to add convenience features such as a belt drive (included on some models, but not on others), add perhaps $150. For truly automated work you would want an automatic tool changer (which you would have to build as a custom unit). You might need a rotary 4th axis for some of the operations on the part shown in the photos (or else you might use a lathe). On top of that you would probably need at least $500 worth of tooling, but possibly a lot more (vise, end mills, collets, maybe a Tormach Tooling System kit, and more).

So I do not think that you are looking at a sub-$1000 setup.

But maybe someone else will chime in with a way to get what you need for less than what I have described.

emachineshop.com will do one-offs, however the job setup charges may make that uneconomical.

[txcncman]

A good used CNC mill can be had for a few thousand dollars and could make the part pictured in as few as 3 operations in about 6 minutes or less.

[jcarver]

to producing thosw parts, the simplest is getting a mini mill and late from harborfreigth or grizzly... that could cost a 2K and up...
these would be conventional, but a good setup and you get profit of..

next step to getting a mini cnc mill.. like syl or tormach or any brand you feel you can afford somewhere 4-5K the least price and up..

if youre sure it is the product that work for you.. then dont hesitate buy a mini cnc mill..

what you can build at home with drillpress and regular tools that will work mainly for woods and plastic.. hard to imagine you make a cast iron mill with cnc at home.. what actually need for effectively machining these..

Do you mean something like these where the cuts would be manual instead of automated?

Mini Lathe - 7" x 10" Precision Mini Lathe
Mini Mill - 2 Speed Mini Milling Machine

[victorofga]

they are too small...
i have the 7x10 lathe and ocassinally making something is ok.. however for a series i wouldnt suggest..

this milling machine at least
Milling / Drilling Machine - 1-1/2 HP
for lathe at least this size
G9972Z 11" x 26" Bench Lathe w/ Gearbox

however if youre limited on money.. then more affordable a mini cncmill.. im talking about this product you like to manufacture..

later any way you need lathe and some decent drillpress, or a mill-drill..

with manual, conventional machines you migth start earlier to work.. however cnc more productive and a good setup takes your headache about tolerances..

yet, conventional machines to break down to steps also can make series affordable..

one thing is sure.. if youre outsourcing you migth get no profit.. so you can jump in the middle, just sure you look around for options..
to buying ready stuff more expenses, but you start making money almost immediately...


that part you posted..
with manual method..

cut length w excess like 1/16

on a mill in vise make length to size..
using stops on vise and endmill..

drill holes using stops

make holes to size with boringhead
boring head 2" r8 | eBay

set in lathe turn shaft part

drill and tap side holes using stops..

all these steps each could take a min or so..
setup is not hard just make everything ""common sense"""...


one thing very important.. you need at least 2 percent extra due youre beginner..
also make sure you have some wood or plastic first try each part of process..
its a little weird to jump into this trade, but you migth be succesful..

[DareBee]

Those parts are extremely simple. To make 2 of them it is not even feasible to program a CNC. Manual mill and lathe to do the job.

[jcarver]

Hmm, the more I think about it the more I realize I don't really need any type of cnc or machine like it.

A drill press could easily make any holes I need and probably much quicker and more efficient.

A regular chop saw could cut things down to length.

A lathe can make the round parts too. One thing I'm curious about though, can a lathe make the round parts off center like in these pics?



Also could a regular router and router table with fence be used to make these types of cuts or would the aluminium not play nice?



Final question, what types of options would there be to for threading all of these holes. I have a hand held tap set but I'm sure after 30 holes that would get old real quick and in a hurry lol.

Again I want to thank you for helping me with all my silly questions. I know I'm completely new to this forum and as such I'm not a contributing member but if its worth anything I'm a top contributing member to another forum specific to my hobby. Doesn't help here much I guess but just wanted to say that I'm not a forum toll and I do really value everyones advice.

[txcncman]

Hand tapper - Hand Tapper - Hand Tappers | MSCDirect.com

With a 4 jaw chuck, a lathe can turn diameters off center. You would want a 4 jaw chuck to hold square or rectangular material any way.

A boring head in a mill can shape OD also. That is why I said before, all you really need is a mill, manual or CNC. And on a good manual mill, you can do power tapping on threaded holes.

[victorofga]

to parting raw material i think for beginning a small metal bandsaw could hep you out..

what harborfreigth has, a small that pretty nifty for beginning.. cheap and easy to replace even the whole machine..

for tapping particularly... if youre not experimented, then i would suggest same tapping equipment as txcnc said from mscdirect..

thats a manual tapping stuff and you can feel firmly how much you can drive the tap, without breaking..


on the last picture ... that already a complicated setup for beginners on manual mill..

but setting holes exact, and using stops you can make a start with a spotdrill or centerdrill, and on a drill press drilling to size, and chamfering holes..

tapping with the manual stuff.. when you get familiar with conventional mill and lathe, then you can thinking seriously on a cnc..

without your hand and eye get using feeds and speeds.. mostly you ending with broken tools on cnc

[wizard]

I think you are jumping the gun here. First; you don't have the machining background, so you need to brush up there. Second; you can't go out buying machinery for a project like this not knowing the required tolerances and having your parts well documented through CAD. Some of your parts are fairly simple and you could code the G code manually but in the end you would be better off with the right CAD/CAM tools.

You should most certainly consider a job shop but realize getting good prices will likely require large orders. That really isn't a problem if you are serious about this business. The fact is you will be spending a lot of money just to get your business started, so a job shop is a rational first move.

Conversion mills are nice but you need confidence that they can make the parts to the tolerance you require. Trying to rebuild a mill to get the tolerance you may require is not cheap nor easy. You don't mention tolerance so we don't know what quality we are looking for in a mill.

[txcncman]

I think you are jumping the gun here. First; you don't have the machining background, so you need to brush up there. Second; you can't go out buying machinery for a project like this not knowing the required tolerances and having your parts well documented through CAD. Some of your parts are fairly simple and you could code the G code manually but in the end you would be better off with the right CAD/CAM tools.

You should most certainly consider a job shop but realize getting good prices will likely require large orders. That really isn't a problem if you are serious about this business. The fact is you will be spending a lot of money just to get your business started, so a job shop is a rational first move.

Conversion mills are nice but you need confidence that they can make the parts to the tolerance you require. Trying to rebuild a mill to get the tolerance you may require is not cheap nor easy. You don't mention tolerance so we don't know what quality we are looking for in a mill.

Huge laughs on the CAD/CAM part of this.

[jcarver]

And that's totally fair. I honestly don't know if this is possible for me or not but its also fair to say that the only dumb question is the one not asked. As well I would be foolish to skip on an opportunity just because I wasn't versed in the entire process of production. I think lots of opportunities present themselves you just have to be willing to accept them as the present themselves.

For this particular item tolerance in completely nonissue. Like no joke a 1/16 of an inch either way would cause no problem at all.

Again I'd like to thank everyone for there advice it's been a big help.

[wizard]

And that's totally fair. I honestly don't know if this is possible for me or not but its also fair to say that the only dumb question is the one not asked.

I agree 100%. I just think you have a lot of ground work to cover

As well I would be foolish to skip on an opportunity just because I wasn't versed in the entire process of production. I think lots of opportunities present themselves you just have to be willing to accept them as the present themselves.

This is also true, however you have to ask your self what is the best way to quickly exploit this business opportunity. Frankly I'd try to avoid investing in capital right away thus the suggestion to farm the product out to a job shop.

For this particular item tolerance in completely nonissue. Like no joke a 1/16 of an inch either way would cause no problem at all.

Again I'd like to thank everyone for there advice it's been a big help.

Volume and materials are a huge issue. I still don't know what these parts are for but alternative production methods such as die casting should be considered if volumes are high.

[DareBee]

Food for thought.
If you can't outsource them from a job shop and sell them for a small profit then there is not enough money in it to be bothered doing it as a business venture.

If you answer no to above and you like to be charitable, make other people happy and really have nothing better you wish to do then go ahead and tool up. This statement is not meant to be mean but harsh truth. I waste my spare time and money ATV mudding and hunting. I am not a particularly charitable guy

[TechGuy5002]

Those parts are extremely simple. To make 2 of them it is not even feasible to program a CNC. Manual mill and lathe to do the job.

These parts can indeed be made fairly quickly on a manual mill. A rotory table with a four jaw chuck can be used to machine the round stud instead of purchasing a lathe. A few jigs could be used to simply the layout and speed up the production. With the rotary table and jigs it would be just as fast as a CNC. My guess it would take between 5 to 10 minutes to machine one part on a manual mill, depending on the performance of the manual mill.